Lets Discuss rationaly some of the things up on board RULES

First topic message reminder :

Here is what ive gotten so far and still need some input on here for Ralph to see or hear.

1 first rumor was clamped classes well here is skippy on that.

Okay so one of the rumors about clamped classesis a rumor it will beclamped at regional and finals to make sure amps are right not to determine classes... So i like that idea as long as it doesn't add 3 hours to the show and usaci has the man power to do it... Good job and effort.. Only thing is cheaters will find a way to hide an amp you cant clamp im sure cheaters will always figure a way...
2 the other harsh rumor was no more prostock.

IT IS A RUMOR . It will be allowed to remove panels in ext cab trucks as well as back seat so they can play as long as below window line.... Thats kewl too should also mae it to where vans with half walls can join too..... Good in my book as well

3. Is that they are not going to have unlimitted anymore .... grrrr


VOICE OPINIONS AND OR COMMENTS THANKS

I was right there when this all went down and he wasnt the only one saying something about it at the time

thats true

sanman wrote:

I said i Kumar because charlse used it as an example to why he suggested the clamp Cow poopy because 0-1000 and 1001-2k is s loud as 2-4 and he said we not him was trying to eliminate the chwater amps so you can squash the rumour Dung Pile Ralph it was said to me and i never said you were the one that said it.

and when your teying to teach Darvile how to do clamp at the show sunday is a strong suggestion thats its leaning toward clamp.


Like I told you why would anyone north of tulsa wanna even go to USACI finals where ever it will be this year when we can spend half of that to go to MWSPL finals and get paid for winning if we win.

in my eyes he had his $hit together.. 1-2 was the only class that made the numbers it should have.. im 100% sure 64s should be had in 0-1k , i know of a van rite now with 2 d5s will do upper 63s and thats with very little testing .. ... and 67s in 2-4 on a bad day.. ... at least with the power at hand... scores shouldnt be a deciding factor in how we do amp classes.. but ONE company pushing the cheater amp limits to put a monopoly on what amp can win finals is.. we shouldnt be limited to 2 manufactures to have fair power.. this is why im not totally against the clamp thing... now.. having people who know how to test amps, and figureing out how to really do all this is a completly different thing.. that makes me lean towards NOO.. like i think matt said.. i see judges struggling to simply get a battery voltage test..

Good point Alan

correct sad thing is and i have always stated this also peka hld is not RMS it is an easy way you see if your ganing power or not thats it.

gives an idea of impedance rise as well, but not the proper way

this was and is still my idea, never denied that to anyone. now as far as the Cow poopy that i was dogging kumar is totally fucked up!!!!!!! i used different vehicles with different amps as examples because i knew the amount of power the amps did in each van. NEVER ONCE DID I SAY KUMARS WAS A CHEATER OR WAS LOUDER THAN ANYONE BECAUSE HE CHEATED! this idea is to basically say that it doesnt matter what your amp is rated it at you can use any amp in any class as long as you stay in a derivitive of that class! if you choose to run the 0-1k clas then your amps should stay in that class instead of having amps rated at 500w and actually getting 8k out of them. now i did say that you would have to have some tolerance because the "max or peak hold" IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY TO GET TRUE RMS, BUT IT IS CLOSE AND OFFERS ANY EASY WAY TO GET IMP. now if you sit back and THINK about this as a whole(not that you have 20k in 601-1800 or something crazy) then it really does make sense. you pick what class you want run and run it with ANY AMP! but now you've picked your class, you have to stay in the powere guidelines provide. whats so hard about that? what are you scared of? it eliminates the need of ANY AMP RATINGS! everyone get metered by the same meters and meters dont lie!all this does is help usaci in keeping the cost down for the competitors cause now you can run ANY AMP YOU WANT! It also eliminates the need for 16v batts but doesnt outlaw them because whether you use 12v or 16v, power is power! its very simple process and directors can be taught quite easily how to turn a meter on and use a calculator. i wish you guys would honestly sit back and think about this for the organization as opposed to just the thought of you just lost your edge and now actually have to work a little harder for the big numbers. the best will always be on top, but now you'll have to do it with the same power as everyone else!

I would like a lil sumn for my headache

charlesestes wrote:

this was and is still my idea, never denied that to anyone. now as far as the Cow poopy that i was dogging kumar is totally fucked up!!!!!!! i used different vehicles with different amps as examples because i knew the amount of power the amps did in each van. NEVER ONCE DID I SAY KUMARS WAS A CHEATER OR WAS LOUDER THAN ANYONE BECAUSE HE CHEATED! this idea is to basically say that it doesnt matter what your amp is rated it at you can use any amp in any class as long as you stay in a derivitive of that class! if you choose to run the 0-1k clas then your amps should stay in that class instead of having amps rated at 500w and actually getting 8k out of them. now i did say that you would have to have some tolerance because the "max or peak hold" IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY TO GET TRUE RMS, BUT IT IS CLOSE AND OFFERS ANY EASY WAY TO GET IMP. now if you sit back and THINK about this as a whole(not that you have 20k in 601-1800 or something crazy) then it really does make sense. you pick what class you want run and run it with ANY AMP! but now you've picked your class, you have to stay in the powere guidelines provide. whats so hard about that? what are you scared of? it eliminates the need of ANY AMP RATINGS! everyone get metered by the same meters and meters dont lie!all this does is help usaci in keeping the cost down for the competitors cause now you can run ANY AMP YOU WANT! It also eliminates the need for 16v batts but doesnt outlaw them because whether you use 12v or 16v, power is power! its very simple process and directors can be taught quite easily how to turn a meter on and use a calculator. i wish you guys would honestly sit back and think about this for the organization as opposed to just the thought of you just lost your edge and now actually have to work a little harder for the big numbers. the best will always be on top, but now you'll have to do it with the same power as everyone else!

all this is why i DO agree.. power is power.. we shouldnt have to buy from the one manufacture who worked to get his amp to "pass" a test.. id much rather buy a used mojo 4k for 500 bucks than have to buy D5s to competitive.. ive thought this way for a long time.. this opens the door to thousands of amp possiblities and not just 2 manufactures..

I will have to say well said Charles, I wonder if they consider a clamped class, I think the main complaint here is that the unknown scares the Dung Pile out of people you know

I wonder if they will bring back the 0-150 class I really enjoyed that class good times high but good

to me it takes the unknown out.. i know im only getting beat by a better builder.. not the guy who has 5 grand to buy the latest and greatest low rated amp.. if you look back in old posts about this time every year , ive brought this up.. this is why we pushed to open the power classes up when they did. it didnt kill cheater amps but it broadend the range of "usable" amps.. now.. amp companys have just caught up..

if anyone has any questions about this idea or wants an explinatation on it ,please give me a call. ill be morethan happy to have a LOGICAL DISCUSSION about it. dont call me with" well now i cant use my amps i bought just for this class", because actually you can.314-973-5370

OK i just typed this up in a new thread while charles was typing. Here is how i explained to others what he explained to me. Maybe this helps a little also..

Subject: Some info on clamped power idea i aquired a bit ago. Today at 5:35 pm

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OK, i got some info on the clamped power idea a bit ago. NOW I MAY MISS SOMETHING here so dont jump to fast fornicators..
One of the reasons for the idea of this was to bring in more manufacture involvement with more brands. Making it where you could now run (for example) a Rockford T4000 in 0-1000 since it will do the same power as most 4k amps out there but currently gets screwed because of its factory 4 ohm rating. Clamping its power and the guy does 3800 watts @ 1ohm, he belongs in 0-1000, fair is fair. Where as right now he would have to run mod 1-2 with this amp.
So the idea was to bring in more manufactures and also bring in the competitors that happen to already own amps that just dont work well with the 4ohm rating. This is one of the bigges reasons for the clamped power idea. Another example was you could run a 7kw amp in 0-1000 as long as when you are clamped durring your run, you dont break the wattage limit for that class. allowing more people more class options not having to buy, sell, buy , sell, buy, sell everytime you decide to change classes. which in turn helps US the competitors from spending spending spending.
The idea of changing to No wall or "mod plus" would take out the 36" rule for the mini trucks.

As far as this much of it goes^^^^ I see positive things. IMO..
Ralph, does this sound more like what was discussed at the meeting?
LIke i said fornicators, dont hate, just trying to shed some light on this.
OK, looks like CHarles was posting his ideas the same time i was.. OH well.. LOL

_________________
Aaron Hanselman
Broken Silence C.C.
Team DB Driven
Team whoodie whoo

the power classes wont change, just the amount of power actually used will be regulated somewhat instead of just running wild. and kumar, if me using your van as a reference point offended you i publicly apologize. it was never meant to point you out or take away from your accomplishments. your are a great builder,friend and teaamate. i honestly dont even remember using your name,just class references but i may have.

If any one has the stuff to test, Lets see some examples? Maybe this could help us understand and no longer have the "un known"

usaci just needs to pick a meter thats a fair priced clamps so everyone can get the same and theres no complaints of "my meter reads different and yours is too high." these are just readings for reference to keep a little control on the actual power we are using and keeps the cost realistic for everyone.there are very easy ways to figure out if a dummy amp is being used. that shouldnt be that hard to police and if your caught using 1 then a severe punishment should be instated like banishment for 1 year for each amp! or a lifetime ban if your caught more than once.

the issue is rms vs peak hold one is truelly real world power and the other isnt thats the issue

the other issue is in mod on 18v how you going to factor in the power now.

also why would we run differant at shows untill we get to regionals just dont make sence and 2 years from now when usaci aint making strides they thought they would get by doing this then what we all use darvilles hoarse and buggy to make it even

everyone in the midwest should save there money and just run MWSPL now instead of the money it takes to go to usaci finals


this is a joke and i say that because now we are just like another org just reworking how they do it is all USACI is no longer UNIQUE in any way

i understand both sides of this but are we changing rule just to change. personally i like things the way they are. i ran in the 0-1000 mod class with two D5 and my score were way down to where people say it should be with these amps. why can`t we try clamping with a new class and really see how it works out before we change things.

are you serious jeff? theres nothing in midwest spl that benton came up with. he stole ever aspect of that organization from different people and put them all together.and you werent anywhere to be found when this discussion happened so dont say you were. all you know is what people that were there told you. the only people bitching about this are the ones with Dung Pile tons of power in classes they shouldnt be in. just remember, EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO HAVE THE SAME POWER THIS WAY EVEN IF ITS NIT 100% DEAD ON FORMULA. THEY WILL ALL BE TESTED THE EXACT SAME WAY, SO WHAT ARE YOU SCARED OF?

thats just it george, we arent changing the classes, just policing them a little. wouldnt you rather win or lose by your build rather than the fact that someone just had a ton more power than you?

what also happens to people that spent alot more money for 18v batts instead for just getting 12v in resent months

so then the only difference between usaci and mwspl becomes the class breakdown and meter location....???

ya would help police things just don`t know how well things would work. things in the NE get hairy with the rules now if things change they would make things harder for the judges.

SQcrewcab wrote:

Making it where you could now run (for example) a Rockford T4000 in 0-1000 since it will do the same power as most 4k amps out there but currently gets screwed because of its factory 4 ohm rating. Clamping its power and the guy does 3800 watts @ 1ohm, he belongs in 0-1000, fair is fair. Where as right now he would have to run mod 1-2 with this amp.

so i take it your doing what usaci does now, 3800 @ 1ohm, is 1900 @ 2 and 950 @ 4, instead of calling it 0-1000 with a 4000 watt amp, why not call it 0-4000.

and what about 18v

also what about if my impedence rise is to .5, would i then be allowed to run 8k watts, because according to usaci math, that'd still be 4k @1 2k @ 2 and 1k @ 4?

and what about 18v, since usaci classes are amp at 14.4, but we can go up to 18, allowed more or no

this is my last post one clamped power and it will be long...

first off if this is done WE CAN NOT GO OFF OF MAX/PEAK HOLD. im not going to put my blood sweat and tears into a build that will be clamped wrong. it may be easy but isnt that the exact opposite of going to clamped power? and plus peak power on the 2 meters DO NOT HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME. this could be thousands of watts off. and really too many variables for this to be done correctly. will clamped power be done after 3 secs, or instantly or when the number is put up? who will record and time all of this? and 99 percent of all clamp meters do not read the same. so will all directors have the same FLUKE clamps? hell you power can change what humidity is outside, what the tempeture is.

and also, will the director be reading both clamps at the same time? or will they have a LOCAL person helping them? sure...are their chances they are apart of a TEAM? man is a teammate going to tattle on another team mate? no. so the human element can throw this off. too much HUMAN ERROR AND EMOTIONAL that can decide if someone is dq'd or not.

sanman is right this takes the uniqueness out of usaci.its mwspl. we "Female dog" about alot of things but like 12v 16v and how to bring in new blood and in my opinion this isnt the right way. competitors are still going to beat the newbies with the same amount of power either way....will they stick around still? no. not at all. wont be any different. except this way they could think they are doing awesome in their class, go to a regional and get dq'd because they have never clamped(or know how) their amps. so now they will hold a grudge.and honeslty....whats going to happen with clamped power???? well every one knows crxs do great with low power. you will see nothing but rexs at finals. then the year after that...there will be a class just for crxs LOL. this will not benifit usaci any.IMO

and also how long will this make the regional shows? im thinking about 15 minutes longer PER car...how many cars at a regional event?lets say 50. thats quite a while.

i do like the idea of bringing no wall vans into prostock or whatever it will be called.

im tired of getting stressed out and pissed off about this. i think it will alienate too many of usacis top members, and at the same time not bring in newbs. i think we should just leave everything the same and focus in on perfecting it. you cant change stuff every year and expect for members to not get fed up. my loyalty is with usaci but it seems like usaci could turn its back on 60 plus percent of its online members. if they do ill wish them the best and move on to dbdrag.

and really...think about jaffes health....him being that close to that much voltage may blow up his pacemakersay no for jaffes health! LOL

bruce-bruce wrote:

so then the only difference between usaci and mwspl becomes the class breakdown and meter location....???

well if we go clamped i think this is a great format but lets use these classes....

Local Level - Classes are for beginner and entry level competitors only. Manufactures, retailers and professionals are discouraged from participating in these classes. This includes but not limited to: Anyone that has competed at ‘any’ World Finals, anyone that is a current member of another sound off organization, someone that has higher skills or knowledge than others in their class. Moving someone out of these classes is at the sole direction of the event promoter or judge. Local level rules may vary from event to event. General rules are outlined in Section 8 of this rule book.

Local Division ( no points, no prize money ) These are typically offered at most Midwestspl Events.

Local 1 – Up to 1-12, 2-10’s or 3-8’s

Local 2 – Up to 1-15, 2-12’s, 3-10’s or 4-8’s

Local 3 – Up to 1-18, 2-15’s, 4-12’s or 6-10’s

Local 4 – Unlimited

National Level - These classes are for the serious competitor that wants to compete against others from their region. These classes are typically more advanced and have a certain set of rules and guidelines to go by. These classes are eligible to attend finals and have a chance to win some prize money at the end of the year.

Basic Division

Basic 1 – Up to 1-12, 2-10’s or 3-8’s, up to 500 watts ( max clamped )

Basic 2 – Up to 1-15, 2-12’s, 3-10’s or 4-8’s, up to 1,000 watts ( max clamped )

Basic 3 – Up to 1-18, 2-15’s, 4-12’s or 6-10’s, up to 2,000 watts ( max clamped )

Basic 4 – Up to 2-18’s, 4-15’s, 6-12’s or 9-10’s, up to 4,000 watts ( max clamped )

Basic 5 – Unlimited Speakers, Unlimited Power

Basic Trunk - Unlimited Speakers, up to 2,000 watts ( max clamped )

Advanced Division

Advanced No Wall - Unlimited Speakers, up to 4,000 watts ( max clamped )

Advanced 1 – Up to 1-18, 2-15’s, 4-12’s or 6-10’s, up to 2,000 watts ( max clamped )

Advanced 2 – Up to 2-18’s, 4-15’s, 6-12’s or 9-10’s, up to 4,000 watts ( max clamped )

Advanced 3 – Unlimited Speakers, Unlimited Power

Xtreme Division ( 30 second music average )

Xtreme 1 – 1-2 Woofers / Unlimited Power / No Wall

Xtreme 2 – 3+ Woofers / Unlimited Power / No Wall

Xtreme 3 – 1-2 Woofers / Unlimited Power / Wall

Xtreme 4 - 3+ Woofers / Unlimited Power / Wall

Kaos Division ( 3 minute music average )

Kaos - Unlimited Woofers / Unlimited Power

im joking.

Like i said, I Think a great start to this would be to have some people start testing stuff NOW, Including USACI. I think if the clamp testing works as some hope, everything will be fine. If things just dont work, different readings and what ever else can go wrong then we squash it. WHO has competed at midwest, what amp(s) did you use and what class did it put you in? I think this is to early to say NO to, I think its worth a try atleast.

Well you can say i use a shiiit ton of power ... But im not keen at all on the idea of clamped ..... Fuuck unique its just not usaci in my eyes . Ill adapt to what ever but no matter how much talking you or Ralph do i just cant change my mind on it... Getting rid of 18v as well to do this. This forces everyone into mod that has a shhhhit ton of 18volt batts... Thank god my truck is loud as fucck no matter what amps i put in...But i still wont say i like this change screw call me a cheater or whatever doesn't mean just cause i dont like it dont mean im acheater nor always using a shiiit ton of power. Scared no Think its just like all the other orgs now YUP... But whatever is whatever ......


But i do like the idea of vans and ext cab trucks intergrating into Prostock.

18v has no bearing on the power. 12v power is the same as 18v power, just done at diff imp.s and there are still alot of difference in uasci. this is just a policing agent to keep you in the correct power class. nothing changes except we dont use manufactureres rating anymore to determine the clas but actually power. and once again(i feel like ive said this a 1000xs) you pick your class and can run ANY AMP YOU WANT! you just have to stay in the limitations of the class. nothing about usaci or the way its setup changes. why are you people so against putting your build up angainst the next guy? you dont get dqed if you go over, just moved up or if its on a rerun, the score doesnt count if you break out. NEVER EVER DQED FOR IT!