16v batteries should not be allowed in sb1-4

First topic message reminder :

it's already in the rules, why was it not enforced?

MADCPB wrote:

Sanman, I would love to go to any of your guys shows, What all this shows is their are at least 3 hard working, world record breaking teams in the midwest. We all set the bar to the highest degree, lets keep it going next year. I need suggestions on a new vehicle, the crx is going all race car, plus i am to god dam big (FAT) to work in that thing.

chris why dont you just trade me rexes you can make mine a race car LOL instead of messing up a good one

yes troy that is what the rules say, no part of the system can exceed 14.7 you got that correct.

so what happens if i touch my black prong of my volt meter to the negative post of the 16v and i touch the red prong of my volt meter to the 16v post, does it exceed 14.7v? is it part of the "system"?

even if itweren't being used it is still part of the system and exceeds the 14.7

kinda like extra amps or woofers not being used, they are still counted, so voltage thats not being used should be as well, we tried to push the rules with the cap in the stock class, the cap volatge that powered the amp did not exceed the 14.7 limit and the amp never saw more than 14.7, but the batt the powered the cap did, even though battery didnt power the amp and the cap and amp would never see more than 14.7 we still had to take it out, no big deal though, the cap still had 14.7 in it without the battery and you can still charge the cap to 14.7 with a alternator and external regulator, just takes a bit longer

but point is no part of the system can exceed the votage limit of 14.7 in the class weather it is being used or not, thats the answer we got on our car, why you guys idnt get the same i dont know

First of all...on day one I do not personally remember verifying the truck. I may have I may not have but I dont believe I was the one to verify this on saturday. On sunday I did. I questioned the batteries, when I found out they were 16 volt batteries with the 12 volt posts being used I proceeded to get a clarification from the head judge(Don Derose). I was told that as long as the voltage did not exceed 14.7 that he would be ok since he was using the 12 volt posts on the batteries.

I have a list of suggestions that I will be sending to Ralph later this week that will help eleviate these problems from occuring again. Hopefully we will see a different format of verification and judging next year.

slumpinhonda wrote:

MADCPB wrote:

Sanman, I would love to go to any of your guys shows, What all this shows is their are at least 3 hard working, world record breaking teams in the midwest. We all set the bar to the highest degree, lets keep it going next year. I need suggestions on a new vehicle, the crx is going all race car, plus i am to god dam big (FAT) to work in that thing.

chris why dont you just trade me rexes you can make mine a race car LOL instead of messing up a good one

Cause the only thing i have left is exhaust, maybe nitrous

MADCPB wrote:

slumpinhonda wrote:

MADCPB wrote:

Sanman, I would love to go to any of your guys shows, What all this shows is their are at least 3 hard working, world record breaking teams in the midwest. We all set the bar to the highest degree, lets keep it going next year. I need suggestions on a new vehicle, the crx is going all race car, plus i am to god dam big (FAT) to work in that thing.

chris why dont you just trade me rexes you can make mine a race car LOL instead of messing up a good one

Cause the only thing i have left is exhaust, maybe nitrous

pull it out an put it in mine i just want the body dont car bout speed

slumpinhonda wrote:

MADCPB wrote:

slumpinhonda wrote:

MADCPB wrote:

Sanman, I would love to go to any of your guys shows, What all this shows is their are at least 3 hard working, world record breaking teams in the midwest. We all set the bar to the highest degree, lets keep it going next year. I need suggestions on a new vehicle, the crx is going all race car, plus i am to god dam big (FAT) to work in that thing.

chris why dont you just trade me rexes you can make mine a race car LOL instead of messing up a good one

Cause the only thing i have left is exhaust, maybe nitrous

pull it out an put it in mine i just want the body dont car bout speed

I have another CRX in back, let me know

MADCPB wrote:

slumpinhonda wrote:

MADCPB wrote:

slumpinhonda wrote:

MADCPB wrote:

Sanman, I would love to go to any of your guys shows, What all this shows is their are at least 3 hard working, world record breaking teams in the midwest. We all set the bar to the highest degree, lets keep it going next year. I need suggestions on a new vehicle, the crx is going all race car, plus i am to god dam big (FAT) to work in that thing.

chris why dont you just trade me rexes you can make mine a race car LOL instead of messing up a good one

Cause the only thing i have left is exhaust, maybe nitrous

pull it out an put it in mine i just want the body dont car bout speed

I have another CRX in back, let me know

whats it look like gotta motor? shape?

body in good shape, needs a windshield, battery, and pass. door window. I have a hood and factory wheels for it.

MADCPB wrote:

body in good shape, needs a windshield, battery, and pass. door window. I have a hood and factory wheels for it.

email me some pics....hockeyplayer2004@msn.com

currently there is nothing in the rule book about the 12/16V hybrid batteries. While one person calls it a 16V battery you can equally call it a 12V battery.

The voltage was checked at a surprise visit in the pit. Low 12's in testing. The voltage was tested in the lanes before the amps where on, after amps where on and after the run. I believe the voltage dropped as low as 11.9 while the peak was 14.3. During the run there was no spikes in voltage.

Congrats on the score.

Maybe next year something in the rule book can outline these types of batteries.

I read only the first page so dont flamer me if this has been resolved but from what i read it seems as though people are calling this treo guy a cheater. Thats bs, rules say nothing about the type of battery, NOTHING!!!!!!!!!
The voltage is all that matters, PERIOD.

Get over it, he was legal, even if he had 48 volt betteries it doesnt matter if it meters out at 14.

der

zacdavis wrote:

I read only the first page so dont flamer me if this has been resolved but from what i read it seems as though people are calling this treo guy a cheater. Thats bs, rules say nothing about the type of battery, NOTHING!!!!!!!!!
The voltage is all that matters, PERIOD.

Get over it, he was legal, even if he had 48 volt betteries it doesnt matter if it meters out at 14.

der

thats what we argued with one of our cars i was under the impression that it was 14.7 at the amps, but we were still made to pull the batt out thats our point not callin him a cheater just wanting to get this clarified in the rules! so this head ache doesnt occur again!

needs to single out 16 volt batts and 12/16 volt hybrids because all it says is 14.7 system voltage so none of us were in the wrong all figured it was 14.7 at the amps which is the way it is probably interpreted by alot of people.....just needs to be clarified

dBSteve wrote:

currently there is nothing in the rule book about the 12/16V hybrid batteries. While one person calls it a 16V battery you can equally call it a 12V battery.

The voltage was checked at a surprise visit in the pit. Low 12's in testing. The voltage was tested in the lanes before the amps where on, after amps where on and after the run. I believe the voltage dropped as low as 11.9 while the peak was 14.3. During the run there was no spikes in voltage.

Congrats on the score.

Maybe next year something in the rule book can outline these types of batteries.

Nough Said

slumpinhonda wrote:

zacdavis wrote:

I read only the first page so dont flamer me if this has been resolved but from what i read it seems as though people are calling this treo guy a cheater. Thats bs, rules say nothing about the type of battery, NOTHING!!!!!!!!!
The voltage is all that matters, PERIOD.

Get over it, he was legal, even if he had 48 volt betteries it doesnt matter if it meters out at 14.

der

thats what we argued with one of our cars i was under the impression that it was 14.7 at the amps, but we were still made to pull the batt out thats our point not callin him a cheater just wanting to get this clarified in the rules! so this head ache doesnt occur again!

The case in street beat was that 12 volt posts were being used and the batteries were used as 12 volt batteries. The case in the stock cars was different. The 16 volt posts were being used to charge a capacitor bank, and while the voltage at the amps was never over 14.7 the battery acted as a charging device. This was the issue in the stock class. I hope that is understood and that it was not a bias decision to allow the usage in street beat and not in stock. If you had been using a battery with 12 volt posts and I could clearly see that the 16 volt part was not used it could have stayed in the car. This would have required that nothing at all was connected to the 16 volt posts on the battery. I will do what I can to be sure that these issues and several others I saw at finals are put into the rules for next year. This is why I've been asking for years for more detailed rules. With my background in EE I know of many ways to get around certain rules, the attempts this year were simply hitting the tip of the iceberg, if we dont clarify our rules in further detail I expect many more things to appear next season.

The voltage was checked on the street beat truck in order to remove any doubt of cheating. Myself as well as Steve and Don Derose were right there monitoring the peak, the min, and the real time voltage of the vehicle. It was legit.

sanman wrote:

if u are in a class that can't run 16v then they shouldn't be allowed in the car at all it would halt the controversy all togather

If the battery produced 12volts as it was installed then it was legal. If the system did not exceed maximum voltage during the run then the head judge made a sound ruling based on the current rules, and the decision is final and fair. The car battery was legal and whatever score it did was legit.

While the rules could be changed for 2008 I do not see a need for it. Common sense should prevail.

As for anyone (there have been a couple) who has posted his or her intent to stop competing or switch to another organization over this issue, all I can think of is..... Incredible!

Matt_Sibley wrote:

The case in street beat was that 12 volt posts were being used and the batteries were used as 12 volt batteries. The case in the stock cars was different. The 16 volt posts were being used to charge a capacitor bank, and while the voltage at the amps was never over 14.7 the battery acted as a charging device. This was the issue in the stock class. I hope that is understood and that it was not a bias decision to allow the usage in street beat and not in stock. If you had been using a battery with 12 volt posts and I could clearly see that the 16 volt part was not used it could have stayed in the car. This would have required that nothing at all was connected to the 16 volt posts on the battery. I will do what I can to be sure that these issues and several others I saw at finals are put into the rules for next year. This is why I've been asking for years for more detailed rules. With my background in EE I know of many ways to get around certain rules, the attempts this year were simply hitting the tip of the iceberg, if we dont clarify our rules in further detail I expect many more things to appear next season.

The voltage was checked on the street beat truck in order to remove any doubt of cheating. Myself as well as Steve and Don Derose were right there monitoring the peak, the min, and the real time voltage of the vehicle. It was legit.

Some of this has already been covered by Chad, Tim and others but I will reiterate. If the system voltage cannot exceed 14.7 volts per the rules, then why were the 16 volt taps even connected? Matt, your words were that if Terry's Rex didn't have the 16v tap connected it would have been allowed to remain in the car, the 16v taps were clearly connected in the truck. We raised this issue. If there was nothing funny going on why not disconnect them? The response given to the judges was that the alternator was charging at 16 volts and as such was tapped onto the 16v side. This right there shows that part of the "system" was over 14.7 volts. Also if that was the case why not charge 16v to the 12 volt posts. Many people do this, never break 14.7v during the run at the battery or amp because of their load and have no problems. Another note is that the batteries were being charged by BOTH a 16v and a 12v charger in the pits. This was going on at the at the same time. Sibley, being an intelligent EE major (as I am not) please tell me the logic and or function behind this, how would it work/act with 2 separate charging sources on the separate taps. Can this happen without 2 separate banks ? (That comment was intended with the utmost respect as I know that you know your stuff electrically.)

Additionally the question remains as such: On Saturday's run voltage remained well beyond 13v at the end of the run. On Sunday's rerun voltage was below 12v half way through the run. Both runs started out at roughly the same number (possibly even exactly the same) yet on Sunday's run, Saturday's final score could not be held for even 15 seconds. I have no doubt that the run on Sunday was by the books. I will not dispute that. I have no grounds to. I/we feel that I/we have grounds to question the number posted on Saturday.

Another question for Mr. Sibley. How many batteries and how strong of a charging system would it take to sustain 13.x volts for 30 seconds with a system producing 40,000 watts? (or 20,000 depending on who you ask what was in the truck)

Obviously nothing changes the results of this weekend. I congratulate ALL champions and applaud your effort. Regardless of how the numbers were attained I think that we can all agree that everyone busted their arses to achieve the numbers that they did. What I am personally striving for here is a fair and CONSISTENT playing field.

As for the comment of verifying the ability of having 16v batts in the car by the office, we received confirmation from the office that the 16v battery could be in Terry's Rex to charge his caps as long as the voltage never broke 14.7 at the amp. This exact setup was also ran and allowed at a 3x show.

I have been in and around this game for over 15 years. I have been at both ends of controversy and am all for pushing the limits. Many people have left this sport of ours in the past because of controversies and we cannot afford to turn people away with our numbers already dwindling.

BillGass wrote:

Matt_Sibley wrote:

The case in street beat was that 12 volt posts were being used and the batteries were used as 12 volt batteries. The case in the stock cars was different. The 16 volt posts were being used to charge a capacitor bank, and while the voltage at the amps was never over 14.7 the battery acted as a charging device. This was the issue in the stock class. I hope that is understood and that it was not a bias decision to allow the usage in street beat and not in stock. If you had been using a battery with 12 volt posts and I could clearly see that the 16 volt part was not used it could have stayed in the car. This would have required that nothing at all was connected to the 16 volt posts on the battery. I will do what I can to be sure that these issues and several others I saw at finals are put into the rules for next year. This is why I've been asking for years for more detailed rules. With my background in EE I know of many ways to get around certain rules, the attempts this year were simply hitting the tip of the iceberg, if we dont clarify our rules in further detail I expect many more things to appear next season.

The voltage was checked on the street beat truck in order to remove any doubt of cheating. Myself as well as Steve and Don Derose were right there monitoring the peak, the min, and the real time voltage of the vehicle. It was legit.

Some of this has already been covered by Chad, Tim and others but I will reiterate. If the system voltage cannot exceed 14.7 volts per the rules, then why were the 16 volt taps even connected? Matt, your words were that if Terry's Rex didn't have the 16v tap connected it would have been allowed to remain in the car, the 16v taps were clearly connected in the truck. We raised this issue. If there was nothing funny going on why not disconnect them? The response given to the judges was that the alternator was charging at 16 volts and as such was tapped onto the 16v side. This right there shows that part of the "system" was over 14.7 volts. Also if that was the case why not charge 16v to the 12 volt posts. Many people do this, never break 14.7v during the run at the battery or amp because of their load and have no problems. Another note is that the batteries were being charged by BOTH a 16v and a 12v charger in the pits. This was going on at the at the same time. Sibley, being an intelligent EE major (as I am not) please tell me the logic and or function behind this, how would it work/act with 2 separate charging sources on the separate taps. Can this happen without 2 separate banks ? (That comment was intended with the utmost respect as I know that you know your stuff electrically.)

Additionally the question remains as such: On Saturday's run voltage remained well beyond 13v at the end of the run. On Sunday's rerun voltage was below 12v half way through the run. Both runs started out at roughly the same number (possibly even exactly the same) yet on Sunday's run, Saturday's final score could not be held for even 15 seconds. I have no doubt that the run on Sunday was by the books. I will not dispute that. I have no grounds to. I/we feel that I/we have grounds to question the number posted on Saturday.

Another question for Mr. Sibley. How many batteries and how strong of a charging system would it take to sustain 13.x volts for 30 seconds with a system producing 40,000 watts? (or 20,000 depending on who you ask what was in the truck)

Obviously nothing changes the results of this weekend. I congratulate ALL champions and applaud your effort. Regardless of how the numbers were attained I think that we can all agree that everyone busted their arses to achieve the numbers that they did. What I am personally striving for here is a fair and CONSISTENT playing field.

As for the comment of verifying the ability of having 16v batts in the car by the office, we received confirmation from the office that the 16v battery could be in Terry's Rex to charge his caps as long as the voltage never broke 14.7 at the amp. This exact setup was also ran and allowed at a 3x show.

I have been in and around this game for over 15 years. I have been at both ends of controversy and am all for pushing the limits. Many people have left this sport of ours in the past because of controversies and we cannot afford to turn people away with our numbers already dwindling.

As I stated the issue in the stock class was that the battery was acting as a charging device. This was the issue here. I was not the one who verified the street beat truck on the first day. I know this though, I was told on day one of the event that voltage would be checked on every vehicle in the lanes. If it was or wasn't had nothing to do with myself or Greg. I strive to be consistent and fair and I feel we made the right decision in both situations. If you wish to discuss this any further you or any of your teammates can e-mail me at hotshot2003@cox.net and I will be glad to answer individual questions. However for the sake of most things at finals being positive lets attempt to keep the forums that way. E-mail me if you would like to discuss things further. Thanks.

i was just alittle shocked to see this myself..i am new at this and really have no clue on how to apply the 16v and not break the 14.7 so i have to street beat the right way with 12v batts that ve been buying to see this upset me a great deal..i think who ever thought of useing the 16v the way he use them and won deserves the win...with out a dought he won..its a loop hole he found and it worked..i dont honestly believe 16v batt are street beat material.. can you use 16v batt for a daily driver would be my question i needed answered...i dont personally no but if you cant use the 16v batt for daily music then it is truely not a street beat car...i picked the street beat class cuz i love bass and bumpin in the street...so i choose 12v class to go with what i have passion for..i hope in the future we can clairfy this for all so that there is no confusion..thankyou for listening guys..this is only my oppinion..

the reasoning for charging at 16v and 12v Bill is because the 3 post batts can't get a full charge at the 12v post. So seeing how both 12v batts were there along with the hybrids, he charged the 12vs with the 12v charger and the Hybrids with the 16v charger so the hybrids could get a full charge. Just my interputation why you would do that.

I was there with the guy building. There is no special switch or selinoid that seems to keep getting reference. Otherwise the judges would have seen the spike. First day I had no idea what happend. I was workin on my truck. I did get to the lane expecting to put a multimeter on my amps as years past and none was placed. I had mine hooked up for my own reference and I waited to be below 18 before I let mine go.

my original intent of this was not to be negative, but to not let this be allowed next year, because all you have to do to use the 16v side is to have the two banks wired to your set of main bus bars and toggle switch in there with a selonoid, all you do is start your sb run, your voltage will drop say from 14.4 to 11 ish, hit the switch to open up the 16v side, and there you are back up to 13.5 to 14ish, then before you stop your music hit the toggle switch to close off the 16v loop from the bus bars and you will have fully used the 16v potential without ever going past 14.7 at the buss bars. now like i said before, i dont know if this was how it was ran or anything like that, im just saying that someone could do this in the future if they wanted, and it would slip by an untrained eye pretty easily, because what is the person holding the volt meter thinking, they are just thinking that they dont want to see a number higher than 14.7. but at the same time it is the only explanation i can come with to explain how his saturday run he was still at 13.5 with 5 seconds to go, i was right there nest to big john at the time an i thought to myself, dang that is some really good voltage for a sb run, it wasn't until later that i learned the were 3 post 16v in there and that got my mind thinking more and more. another way it could be done is that he had to separate banks of batteries, im not sure how many, but let just use a nice even number of 20 total, say 10 12v and 10 16v, those tied together would give you somewhere around 15.9 to 16 volt and would work to help with voltage drop as well, while i dont advise hooking up batteries like this as th 12 would always be trying to pull down the 16v and vice versa, it would work for the purpose of what we do, they just probably wouldnt last as long. in fact this is how i kept my batterires hot up until the juging verification area without needing charger, i just had a pull along cart with some 8v's on it

and as far as alternaotrs go we should put that in there too, i know a lot of people have 18v alternators with adjustable regulators, but we should have it say the alternaotor cannot charge above 14.7 as well or just put a clear defintition of what 14.7 is.

i know we want to keep it simple and have a few rules as possible, but sometimes we need to outline and update the rules more often to clarify things, not just his rule either, but others as well

kasey wrote:

i was just alittle shocked to see this myself..i am new at this and really have no clue on how to apply the 16v and not break the 14.7 so i have to street beat the right way with 12v batts that ve been buying to see this upset me a great deal..i think who ever thought of useing the 16v the way he use them and won deserves the win...with out a dought he won..its a loop hole he found and it worked..i dont honestly believe 16v batt are street beat material.. can you use 16v batt for a daily driver would be my question i needed answered...i dont personally no but if you cant use the 16v batt for daily music then it is truely not a street beat car...i picked the street beat class cuz i love bass and bumpin in the street...so i choose 12v class to go with what i have passion for..i hope in the future we can clairfy this for all so that there is no confusion..thankyou for listening guys..this is only my oppinion..

Kasey,

The batteries used were the 16/12volt type. This means that you can connect them as a 12 volt battery or as a 16 volt battery. Typically to maintain an equal charge across the cells and not ruin any of them you would charge the batteries across all of the 8 cells. These batteries can be charged across the 8 cells and still be connected to the amps on the 12 volt posts using only 6 of the cells. For instance, if the alternator were charging at 18.0 volts, the voltage per cell would be approximately 2.5 volts per cell. When connecting to only 6 of the cells on the 12 volt post the voltage would be 15.0 volts. These numbers are used because of simplicity of math and explanation. If one were to only charge the 12 volt posts and not the entire battery there would be a difference in electrical potential of the cells that over time would hurt the performance of the battery. The way they were being used was in fact a gray area but was determined legal by not only myself, but the head judge Don Derose. Three of us personally monitored the voltage of the vehicle on the 2nd day, the same measurements of voltage were supposed to take place on day one as well. If they did or did not was not in my hands, I would hope for sake of consistency that voltage was checked in EVERY vehicle. I assure each and everyone of you that these issues will be addressed to Ralph later this week and that I will put forth my utmost effort to clarify certain rules and make finals even more consistently judged next year. Like I said in the previous post, please direct all comments or questions to my email address: hotshot2003@cox.net Thank you for keeping the forums positive!

kasey wrote:

i was just alittle shocked to see this myself..i am new at this and really have no clue on how to apply the 16v and not break the 14.7 so i have to street beat the right way with 12v batts that ve been buying to see this upset me a great deal..i think who ever thought of useing the 16v the way he use them and won deserves the win...with out a dought he won..its a loop hole he found and it worked..i dont honestly believe 16v batt are street beat material.. can you use 16v batt for a daily driver would be my question i needed answered...i dont personally no but if you cant use the 16v batt for daily music then it is truely not a street beat car...i picked the street beat class cuz i love bass and bumpin in the street...so i choose 12v class to go with what i have passion for..i hope in the future we can clairfy this for all so that there is no confusion..thankyou for listening guys..this is only my oppinion..

IM not trying to start Sh*t with you Kasey but I remember at a certain show I went to one of your GOOD friends was running SB1 there and when I was standing in the back behind his car looking at the amps he had mounted by the back hatch I noticed something not right! The amps had a voltage display on them showing how much voltage was going to the amps. 17.4 If I recall was going to those amps. While this friend of yours ran his vehicle the voltage did not drop pass 13.3-5. No one said anything about it because he was the only one in that class, So for someone saying and I quote "i dont personally no but if you cant use the 16v batt for daily music then it is truely not a street beat car" So if you want this question that you asked answered and I quote you again "i dont personally no but if you cant use the 16v batt for daily music then it is truely not a street beat car" Ask your friend and see what he says!

kickercrx wrote:

my original intent of this was not to be negative, but to not let this be allowed next year, because all you have to do to use the 16v side is to have the two banks wired to your set of main bus bars and toggle switch in there with a selonoid, all you do is start your sb run, your voltage will drop say from 14.4 to 11 ish, hit the switch to open up the 16v side, and there you are back up to 13.5 to 14ish, then before you stop your music hit the toggle switch to close off the 16v loop from the bus bars and you will have fully used the 16v potential without ever going past 14.7 at the buss bars.

Not to argue but to clarify how these hybrid 16/12 volt batteries are composed...

Resting voltage is generally 2.1VPC(volt per cell), with 6 of these cells connected the battery voltage is 12.6-13.2. With all of 8 of the cells connected at 2.1-2.2VPC you get a voltage between 16.8 and 17.6. A difference ranging between 4.2-4.4V difference between the 12 and 16 volt terminals at any given point.

If one were to play off of the 12 volt posts only and get voltage down to 10.5 or 11 then flip a switch, the voltage would be raised between 4.2-4.4V putting them very close to or over the 14.7 point. If the voltage were monitored during the run and such a spike occured then there would be cause for concern. On day two when I was there to watch the entire run no such spike occured. I hope that the same was true for Saturdays run but had no such control over that.

I will say something regardless of the aforementioned disputes...if someone will go as far as to cheat for a plastic trophy I think they should step back and reevaluate themselves. This hobby is for fun, it needs to remain fun. I personally walked up to the judging lanes and made sure that this vehicle was checked on sunday to remove any doubt that any would have of possible cheating. They were legal and by the books when I did this. We should all congratulate them on the win and try to come back stronger next year. Arguing here will not change the result of the weekend. Lets put it behind us and move on. I'd like to hear any suggestions for rule clarifications or ways the given scenario would have been handled by each of you in this post though, but do not post here, email them to me hotshot2003@cox.net I will be assembling suggestions and comments as well as compliments to send to Ralph later this week and would be glad to include any suggestions you guys may have. Thanks.

Matt_Sibley wrote:

kickercrx wrote:

my original intent of this was not to be negative, but to not let this be allowed next year, because all you have to do to use the 16v side is to have the two banks wired to your set of main bus bars and toggle switch in there with a selonoid, all you do is start your sb run, your voltage will drop say from 14.4 to 11 ish, hit the switch to open up the 16v side, and there you are back up to 13.5 to 14ish, then before you stop your music hit the toggle switch to close off the 16v loop from the bus bars and you will have fully used the 16v potential without ever going past 14.7 at the buss bars.

Not to argue but to clarify how these hybrid 16/12 volt batteries are composed...

Resting voltage is generally 2.1VPC(volt per cell), with 6 of these cells connected the battery voltage is 12.6-13.2. With all of 8 of the cells connected at 2.1-2.2VPC you get a voltage between 16.8 and 17.6. A difference ranging between 4.2-4.4V difference between the 12 and 16 volt terminals at any given point.

If one were to play off of the 12 volt posts only and get voltage down to 10.5 or 11 then flip a switch, the voltage would be raised between 4.2-4.4V putting them very close to or over the 14.7 point. If the voltage were monitored during the run and such a spike occured then there would be cause for concern. On day two when I was there to watch the entire run no such spike occured. I hope that the same was true for Saturdays run but had no such control over that.

I will say something regardless of the aforementioned disputes...if someone will go as far as to cheat for a plastic trophy I think they should step back and reevaluate themselves. This hobby is for fun, it needs to remain fun. I personally walked up to the judging lanes and made sure that this vehicle was checked on sunday to remove any doubt that any would have of possible cheating. They were legal and by the books when I did this. We should all congratulate them on the win and try to come back stronger next year. Arguing here will not change the result of the weekend. Lets put it behind us and move on. I'd like to hear any suggestions for rule clarifications or ways the given scenario would have been handled by each of you in this post though, but do not post here, email them to me hotshot2003@cox.net I will be assembling suggestions and comments as well as compliments to send to Ralph later this week and would be glad to include any suggestions you guys may have. Thanks.

one more post as i'm sure you guys are getting tired of me already, in the case of the 16v vs 12v the differnce you give above is accurate, now before i say this, this is just me thinking out loud as i'm not even close to being an EE like yourself, but in the case of the 16v hybrid, wouldnt the voltage drop per cell be greater than that of the 12v battery (of the same size), i'm not sure of the specs of the audioforce, but the kinetk 1800 is rated at 81 ah and 1900 amps, and the kinetik 16v 3 post is rated at 62 ah and only 1600 amps, and they use the same size case so since they are essentially putting 8 cells in the same case as 6 would normally go they are typically smaller, meaning that per cell you would have a greater drop, and it would not maintin the 4.2-4.4 volt differance that you started with so with the 12v you may have a 4 volt drop, but with the 16v of the same size you would probably have more like a 5 volt drop since each individual cell is not as powerful as the 12v's cell's

and as far as the spike of the voltage the whole situation above i spoke of was getting to what the voltage drop would be if it hadnt been helped, probably 10.5 to 11, now that is the complete drop, i explianed it that way so hopefully everyone would get the picture of what should happen in a sb run, and then how the 16v would help. but what i was actually thinking was that if you played your music and hit the switch at the exact same time you may not notice anything, instead of going, 14.1-10.5-13.5v, if you simply hit the switch right at the start you would just go 14.4-13.5. i just gave the explaination to show what the voltage whould do had it not had any help at all, then what it would go up to once the reinforcement was there. probably not even noticable if the music and the seloioid are operated at the same time.

now again i didnt say this was what anyone did, maybe he just had a really good charging system and super efficiant amps. i'm just saying its the only way it makes sense to me that he was at 13.5 at the end

RowRowSB wrote:

straight from the mouth of Magoo....

"i want to know why jeremy could not back up his number on sunday while his voltage was being monitored, he came out at the same number but 15 seconds into the run he dropped harder below his orignal number and ended his run... it is what is.. you took first so what? you have 2 inches more on your trophy but Josh from L&C and myself have more pride in the world knowing we do our numbers legit... i did a 157.1 droping below 11 volts using 4 wet cell batteries, L5 kicker woofers (vs custom hybrid woofers), 8000 watts of incriminator power (vs your 20000+watts). and NEVER having 16v in questions... take it how you want rules should have been followed and i know i have you... but thats cool... whatever"

I will tell you why becasue I couldnt get the amperage back into my batteries....I charged my bateries for a week solid to get them fresh and when a 25 amp charger cant charge to its capacity I couldnt get more than a top charge. And if the 2 inches dont bother him why was he so upset? JUST TO BE CLEAR I WAS LEGIT AND I DID NOT CHEAT AND I BUILT THE TRUCK MYSELF....I DIDNT PAY SOMEONE TO DO IT....AND AS FAR AS MY WOOFERS AND AMPS....THEY WHERE TREO. WHAT DID YOU BUILD ROW ROW?

Maybe now that some people including judges have posted how the hybrid batteries work you will ask before you accuse.

Jeremy is my HERO

Just to let everyone know, this thread is mainly about Metro Audio Dynamics and Stereowest. Team Swat is just mad because they didn't win ANY 1st place tropies. They talked all year long that they were going to do this and that. But when it all came down, they were shut out. Like Jeremy said before, " You can win any local shows you want and claim how many trophies you guys have won all year, but when it all came down to finals, you all fell flat.

this is not the first company or time this has arisen either turbostart ring a bell

Marty, what was said all year that we were going to do this or that other than what classes we were going to run???? Someone would have to be stupid to thnk that they have a class in the bag before going to finals (except Bruce and that Damn 63.6 or 8 or whatever ungodly number it was)?