1 seat & 2 seat class???

First topic message reminder :

Here is my question...

Is there a FAIR way to have one seat and two seat judging in the same class?

discuss...

I apologize in advance for my lack of cover-to-cover knowledge of the USACi rulebook. Is a single-seat car going to be allowed to compete in a two-seat class?

Scott

I agree, the installation effort would be there, just as it is with the cars we have each built and compete with now.

My real point is that when it comes to competing in the SQ lanes, allowing center seat carss to compete with traditional side-by-side two seat cars is not a legitimate competition.

It would be akin to NHRA saying "OK, we're going to allow rocket powered vehicles to race in the Top Fuel class now." All the teams that have been racing for decades with the highly restrictive rules regarding how Top Fuel dragsters must be built, with engine displacement limitations, chassis requirements, fuel, tires, etc specified, and so on, could then decide to either rebuild their entire team to support a rocket powered car, or they can settle for not even having a chance to win. Think Tony Shumacher or any of the other top drivers would have a problem with allowing rocket powered cars race in the current Top Fuel class??? Bet your rear end they would!

In our SQ environment, the current two seat judging rules we have are designed to accurately compare systems of the same type. A center seat car would absolutely walk all over even the very best two seat car if judged by the same rules we use today. It wouldn't even be close.

And sure, the judges would expect the center seat car to sound fabulous. But even if it weren't as good as it could be, if they score by the rules, the center seat car, even if it weren't built perfectly, should max out all of the spatial categories easily.

by using a single center mounted seat, the most challenging variables we face with two seat systems are totally eliminated, and it would be relatively easy to make the single center seat system sound almost as good, if not just as good as a reference system. There's no real challenge there. As you said, staging and imaging are taken care of with a snap of the fingers. Tonality and dynamic capability really aren't that difficult to get right either, when all the spatial cues are already taken care of.

We did it when I worked at Autosound 2000 in North Carolina in 1997. Richard had several Grand Nationals that had no interiors in them, and we put the Genelecs in one with a center seat, just to see how good it could possibly sound. With just a couple of acoustical treatments on some reflective surfaces, and a little EQ, we had it sounding about 99% as good as the Genelecs sounded when set up in the ideal configuration in a nice acoustically balanced listening room. And we only spent a few hours setting it up. Of course it didn't look pretty, but it sounded phenominal. The acoustical work was done that quickly. All that would have been left was to make the installtion look nice. We figured, "Geez, what's the point... It's too easy this way." So we never pushed to finish it out.

With a two seat system, I don't see that anyone will be able to get to that point, at least in the foreseeable future.

I'm all for anyone building a center seat car, and installing a great sounding audio system. I'd love to see and hear it!

USACi, IASCA, MECA, SLAP, CAN, or what ever organization can do what they want with the rules, and we can either choose to play or not...

Build a center seat car! I bet it would be very cool and sound great! But in the SQ competition lanes, it could not legitimately compete with two seat cars. In my opinion, it would need it's own class to compete in.


Mark Eldridge

well put.

Scott Buwalda wrote:

I apologize in advance for my lack of cover-to-cover knowledge of the USACi rulebook. Is a single-seat car going to be allowed to compete in a two-seat class?

Hey Scott,

That's the question that hasn't been answered yet. The USACi rules are not specific regarding how the seating configuration must be set up, nor if the judges have to listen to the system simultaneously.

Back when the competition was much tougher, everyone was required to be judge from both front seats, and there wasn't even a single seat issue, so the rules didn't need to be so specific.

Now, with the advent of single seat judging classes (i.e. from the driver's seat) the rules have never been addressed to specify how the seat must be configured in the car, except that the judge must sit in the driver's seat. There really aren't any specific rules in the USACi rule book addressing the issue yet.

I remember someone asking about the center seat idea back in 96 or 97, using two center mounted tandem seats. They were told "No" because it would be too easy, and eliminated the challenge in building the car to sound good.

I would expect that the USACi Rules guys and gals are keeping tabs on this issue, and they will make a determination at some point. But until someone actually builds a center seat car, and tries to enter it in competition, they can sit back and enjoy the drama...


Mark Eldridge

Good answer, thanks. Hopefully I'm not speaking out of turn when I say this should probably be addressed now verses later, in case someone is building such a car and has designs on competing it.

Without such a rule in place, what's to stop any person competing in a two-seat class from taking his passenger seat out and making it a "one-seat car" (and then using mechanical and electronic means to tune the soundstage)? That's just plain silly. I can see it now, walking through the USACi Finals hall and seeing a whole bunch of cars with one seat bolted in.

Scott

Bite your tongue Scott....i have already done that, and now you have shown to the world my plan to take over the World...of SQ competition...

It has taken some preparation with some minor setbacks...

Preparations A-G failed miserably, but this current one has been just right...I CALL IT....PREPARATION H AND ON THE HOLE, IT JUST FEELS GOOD TO ME. This type of preparation is just soothing. When it is run, it is crisp, takes out all the hotspots of bad reflections and gives me the coolness to complete my tasks.


wait, what were we talking about again..?

Goldmember

OnYrMrk wrote:

Bite your tongue Scott....i have already done that, and now you have shown to the world my plan to take over the World...of SQ competition...

It has taken some preparation with some minor setbacks...

Preparations A-G failed miserably, but this current one has been just right...I CALL IT....PREPARATION H AND ON THE HOLE, IT JUST FEELS GOOD TO ME. This type of preparation is just soothing. When it is run, it is crisp, takes out all the hotspots of bad reflections and gives me the coolness to complete my tasks.


wait, what were we talking about again..?

That's funny, I was just watching that clip on youtube last night.

thank god for stupid funny! it's actually theraputic, just like prep, uh plan h

Personally, I say build your one seat car! And when some of these one seat cars show up. I say they should compete in the one seat class..... Think about it..... for a minute...... the single seat cars utilize any and all of the technology available to time delay and tune there cars electronically,,,,, so why not do it mechanically? the only way to do it mechanically is to move the seat into the center...... I dont have a problem with it. Knock your selves out...... I just hope that the orgs do the right thing and put them in the correct classes.... My opinion is quite simple,,, the guy that builds a center seat car to compete, is in fact elimintaing alot of the difficulty no matter what argument they try to throw out. But I say go for it! do a cool job and make a great sounding car. Just be prepared to handle the ridicule if you get beat by a 2 seat car.... There is still alot of scoresheet left.

Alright...nuff talking about it. I have no issue with installers that are pushing the envelope to do this. I would just like an official stance from USACi and IASCA...in print.
My guess, Expert, judges get in one after the other then average scores. Ralph?

Who is actually building a single seat car? I know of a guy in Florida, which is almost done..... this car is a cross promotional project with universal studios. it is a tribute vehicle to the MATRIX movie..... there is also a guy in Georgia, and then Chris Pate wants to convert his car.... who else is there?

jsketoe wrote:

Alright...nuff talking about it. I have no issue with installers that are pushing the envelope to do this. I would just like an official stance from USACi and IASCA...in print.
My guess, Expert, judges get in one after the other then average scores. Ralph?

buli sh!t....the score sheet says driver and passenger side....if there's not a passenger side it is a one seat car....with one seat rules

I say score the second side as zeros. No seat to judge from = no where to sit = can't hear anything = 0

Mickey...Mike....trust me when I say that's how I would do it if it were my call. It'd go with 50% scores in sound at best...absolute best.
I'm just guessing as to how it would go down after talking to a couple of folks.

Also, there's nothing that I've found on the USACI sheet or book that say two judges simultaneously side by side. If I've missed it...please find it and link it, I spent a while looking for it. I wish there was...it'd solve this problem because said book would be in effect for 09 Finals.

"Note: USACI reserves the right to change these judging guidelines."----'09 Usaci Adv General SQ Rules

Someday

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I really thought at one time somewhere it said two judges, side by side or driver/passenger....something to that effect.

John,

I didn't find anything like that in the rules or on the score sheet. I even used my handy dandy find tool on the 'puter.

exactly

All “Vehicles” must be licensed and “Street Legal” as per federal regulations. Vehicles that do not comply will be judged in the Advanced Expert class. USACI will require all of the following OEM equipment to be installed as installed from the factory and function as originally intended. This equipment must remain installed on the vehicle at all times while being judged:
Headlights (OEM style and location) Tail lights
Blinkers (front and rear) Speedometer
Emergency brake Windshield wipers
OEM or equivalent commercially available automotive seats. (no boat or home made seats)


Wouldn't this mean any cars with a center seat or a seat removed would be in expert only?

"and function as originally intended. "

That is what I would think would be a quick ticket to expert. Of the guys I've talked to, the one-seat cars being discussed would be expert anyway.
My issue is not that they are expert...my issue and our Team's issue is that we think only one sound judge would be able to score...the other would score a ZERO.

You can argue about what the rules say specifically all you want... It used to say two front seating positions, years ago. Nothing specific there today...

I tend to look at it from the spirit of competition aspect. Re-read the NHRA top fuel analogy...

Ask the guys that originally wrote the rules. In the mid 90's, when some competitors brought this idea up, they were laughed at and simply told they would not be allowed to compete because it was too easy, and it didn't fit with the spirit of the rules. Back then, the idea was to build a system that two people could enjoy at the same time, which also made the competition more challenging than building for only one seat.

Allowing a center drive SQ system to compete by the same rules in the same class as a traditional two seat system will destroy what ever class in which it might be allowed... Expert, Pro, Consumer... Center drive vehicles would change everything that exists today as far as how the competition goes. If center seat cars are allowed to compete in the Expert class under the current rules, it would not be worth my time to compete with my car. Any novice installer that can move a seat to the center, and make the installation look pretty, would probably win easily.

Like I said before, we set up a center seat car with the Genelecs as an experiment. In about 4 hours, we had it sounding better than ANY two seat system I've ever heard. It is very easy to do!

The "C" in USACi "is for the word Challenge, which building a center seat car to sound good is not.

I wish USACi would jump in here, and make a ruling so we can all quit going back and forth... Center seat cars allowed by curreent rules? Award 50% of possible points because there's only one seat? Create a new class?

Ralph??? Tim??? Bueller??? Bueller??? Bueller???

Now, back to the challenge, and fun, of making my two-seat system sound better before the Texas Summer Showdown and Scrapin' the Coast in a couple of weeks...


Mark Eldridge

OK, i just moved the seat the the center of the Solara... it looks cool and I shouldnt have much problem finishing it out... the soundstage is really unbeleivable...... I say center seat is the way to go...... !!!!

cool!

I agree with Eldridge, I think a seperate class is in order. I like the idea of trying new things, but not pushing the gray areas of the rules.

ok, when the time comes, USACI should have a center seat single seat class..... fair enough

Or actually, what Chris and I discussed today was a single-seat class. That would also allow someone with a one seat tune (i.e normal seating positions using electronic correction tuned for driver's seat only) to compete. Put it on the advanced sheet so there is full blown install and sound...just one seat sound.
ONly offer the class at finals and it would be an open class.

....or , we could banish center seat cars like that lil red festiva without its front seats from a few years back. lol



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