1 seat & 2 seat class???

Here is my question...

Is there a FAIR way to have one seat and two seat judging in the same class?

discuss...

ABSOLUTELY NOT....I don't have time to explain right now but I will tomorrow at work

TeamCobra1 wrote:

ABSOLUTELY NOT....I don't have time to explain right now but I will tomorrow at work

Please do... I would like to hear your ideas,

thanks

TeamCobra1 wrote:

ABSOLUTELY NOT....I don't have time to explain right now but I will tomorrow at work

let me get this straight.....you are gonna reply to a post on the internet while running a 50 ton crane in an oil refinery? LOL!

Chris, Any thoughts this?

not sure what you mean?

why would you have one seat and two seat judging in the same class?

Chris's Studio Civic wrote:

why would you have one seat and two seat judging in the same class?

So at a money round show you could have one class to split up the prize money for (aka higher prizes), BUT two seat cars could do what they do best and one seat cars could have a shot.

I didn't say it's a great idea, but i'm trying to see if i'm missing something.

Plus, this idea was brought up by several competitors so i thought I would see if you guys had any ideas.

One idea could be to use 6 judges... Two seat cars have 3 sets and average the top 5 scores and one seat cars have the same 6 judges all from the driver seat and average all scores?????

Or maby use all scores and add 5 points to the total for 2 seat cars??????


Again, I never said this is a good idea... just a thought.

After thinking about the top 10 cars last year at DSN, most actually compete normally in a 2-seat class, but were judged for DSN by only 1 judge at a time from the driver's seat.

Just go with 2 seat judging. Make it easy on yourself. Those folks who are used to 1-seat judging can do a little extra work like the 2-seat guys had to last year.

Just my 2 cents...

I think you should pick one or the other. I know if I came to a show and found out you could choose one seat or two seat judging.....I would pick one seat and hit a preset on my processor that is set up for one seat judging. Any car that sound great as a two seat car sounds even better when set up for one seat judging. I can gaurantee that most of us have a one seat setting saved on there processor.

its way to easy to build a car for 1 seat....in my opinion the people that chose to take the easy way out and build a 1 seat car now have insensitive to step up and build a real car....get competitions back how they used to be....the money rounds should be for the elite cars....if you have a one seat car you now have plenty of time to tune for 2seat for the big show....one of the main problems with sq competition today is we keep simplifing things and this has done nothing but make the # of competitors go down...

money shows are for the best of the best....not the best with limitations....if you choose to run against the big dogs you should build or tune to catch up with them....we shouldn't have to lower our standards to make it fare for other people that made a choice to build a simpler car.

end of rant....

I second that.

if you want to wear big boy pants you need to grow into them

XXl

I agree, I think one seat cars are the easy way out. Winning a one seat class is kind of like bragging about winning the first half of the football game 7 to 0 but actaully losing the whole game 56 to 7....... maybe they should only judge half of the install in the one seat class, that would even give a better advantage.... but to answer the question,,,, half two judgws judge the car with seperate sheets.... use only one score for the single seat then average the two sheets to get the two seat score..... or grow some apples and compete in 2 seat..

I'm trying to cater to the masses... there are a lot more cars that do one seat in DSN's region because of MECA and it would be nice to have the largest turnout possible.

BUT I want the best cars possible at the highest level.

The problem is no one will be happy...

I just don't have the money at this point to have as big of a turnout as Tulsa had for a 2 seat show.

I will make an announcement in the next few weeks how this years Deep South Nationals will be formatted and judged.

Thanks for the input,
Rick Sellers

if your going to give prize money, just dont give as much to the one seat class... for example they only get judged for half the car so only give half the prize money.... seems straight forward to me... I understand your situation... T

if someone puts in half the time....half the effort....and half the money to build half the car and they want to compete against the cars that took the time to do it all then I say run what u brung and complete using the most advanced rules....give these people some incentive to make their cars better and get the lanes full of cars again....like I said before the money shows are for the best of the best...if big prize money isn't reason enough for them to build a better car then what is

true

hello mickeys pub, how you doin???

Yeh, Dont do prize money for the one seat wonders.... Do the real money in 2 seat.... make everyone step up.... if you offer money I beleive most one seat wonders would work to become 2 seaters.....

offer a money round for the SPL guys,,, execpt do it like battleship..... let the opposite competitor pick the frequency, that the other vehicle has to play.... then each competitor has the option of going as loud as they think they can before there gear blows up..... this would be cool.....

Twice as long to build a two seat car??? I'd bet it's closer to 4 to 5 times as long to set up the front stage system.

I understand the limitations some people have on time and money to set up their systems, and the fact that they are usually the only person in the car. That's great for regular local and maybe even regional events under normally sanctioned rules from one of the major organizations.

But in an unsanctioned money round, (because the sanctioning orgs will not put up serious money in their own classes...), it's all up to the promoter. Anyone that chooses to play must play by the promoter's rules.

Personally, if I had to choose either one or two seat judging criteria, I'd much rather see the money rounds use strictly two-seat judging rules. Like Mickey said, you want to take home the big money, step up and play by the big money rules.

But, from a promoter's standpoint, you probably need to have a one seat class too.

There is no way to fairly compare one and two seat systems using the same judging criteria.

Try this on for size... Split the prize money so that there is 4 to 5 times as much in the two seat purse as the one seat purse. Then, allow all competitors invited to compete in the money round compete in both the one seat and two seat classes, whether their car is a one or two seat car in the regular event. If any particular car wins both the one seat and two seat money rounds, it is truly the King of the Hill.

It's never been done before... It would be interesting to see just how the two seat cars, re-tweaked for a one seat setting, truly stack up against the dedicated one seat cars...

This whole scenario would be kind of like NASCAR saying they want to run the Camping World Trucks, the Nationwide cars, and the Sprint Cup cars all against each other to see who is truly the best. Each series has its own set of criteria, and there's no way to run them together and be able to determine who is the overall best. But, if for example, Kyle Busch races in all three series, and wins the Championship in all three, There would no arguing that he would be the King Schiznit...

I like the SPL Battleship idea... Better get ready for some really low SPL numbers out of the one-note-wonder-bass systems. Alma's Bronco system would dominate this kind of competition. It couldn't do more than a 174.9 at any frequency, but it could easily pop a 172+ at any frequency between 30 and 100 Hz.

If its for money I would go ultimate rules SQ and do install seperate. Meaning pure sound quality 2 seats with a greater deviation posibility between scores then have Install. Anyone who has done the time and tuning can win SQ and those who have the money and time and engineering where the serious money is spent can still compete. For prize money that is where the divide should be not 1 or 2 seats.

Here is another idea,,,,
All cars are judged with two judges.
The driver seat judge scores the car as he hears it.
The passenger seat judge scores the car as he hears it.
They do not communicate to each other at all.
after the judging is completed.
the passenger seat judge's score sheat get scored on a different scale so that it is only worth about 30% percent of its original value.
Then average the two sheets together.
This doesnt harm the one seat car. and doesnt punish the 2 seat car either.
Put more enphasis on tonality in both seats scoring.
This would even thing up as mush as I think you could.
I dont think you should have a 1 seat and a 2 seat class.
Put what prize money you can into one large purse...

I agree and yet disagree with having a 1 seat class and 2 seat class for the money round. I disagree because it is a money show and not funded by the sanctioning bodies. It is supposed to be for those who want to challenge themselves. On the flip side what about those who are serious about competing but do not have the time or resources or ability to build a 2 seat car. Should we alienate them from this type of show. I thing our goal is to grow the hobby again not run people off. It is a tough call. You want to increase participation but you also want to reward the best of the best. I guess just throw everybody in together and see how it plays out.

In IASCA there are three classes for 2seat cars. Ultimate and SQC 2 seat, and expert/manufacturer. In USACi there are 5 classes. Advanced Consumer, Advanced Ultimate, Pro Q, Consumer Q, expert.

Total in both organizations 26 competitors showed up.

For one 1 seat---there were 21 cars showed up just for IASCA. 28 at USACi finals.


Almost a 2-1 margin. That isn't even getting into MECA that is a 1 seat organization (it now has a 2 seat class but only one real 2 seat vehicle was in that class at finals last year).


You can talk about what competition should be, who works the hardest, etc. Doesn't matter because the 2 seat cars don't exist. I can show you in the Tulsa results where the one seat cars started on the results list and where the 2 seat cars ended. It was a painful line in the sand. I wouldn't expect many of those one seat cars to drive a great distance again to see where they stack up in that type of judging---they know now. the ones I know have told me they don't plan on doing it again.


Building a 2 seat car is not just 'harder work' it also generally means making the car less daily driveable. Cutting holes in floors, cutting up support braces, rebuilding dashes, making it painfully obvious equipment is in the car (Steve head's civic is the one exception as far as visible equipment). There are not too many 2 seat vehicles that you can park at the movies/mall/airport and walk away from and not expect to be filling out a police report later. Most one seat vehicles you can.

Don't alienate those that still compete (and quite heavily I might add) because they won't make the necessary vehicle changes so that both seats image "ok".


I do think there should be more prize money for the 2 seat cars, but it shouldn't be 4 or 5 to 1. If there is $5000 available. I would do $3000 for 2 seat and $2,000 for 1 seat. Break it out to the top 5 and move on. Or since there are so few 2 seat cars out there---and they are generally on such a higher level---make that a 1st place takes it all class.


If there are two classes I will have 2 vehicles. One in 1 seat and one in 2 seat. If there is one class--I will have 2 vehicles in that class. I compete--I don't care what the classes are or where the show is---I show up and compete. I do recognize though the reality of what is out there at shows and what those competitors are willing to do these days.

I think they should do away with the one seat judging all together...I've never had a custom dash and in 10years have very rarely been out scored on sound...application is everything if someone chooses to build a custom dash it will take longer to build but in the long run be easier to tune...on the other hand if u choose not to build you will have more time to tune for the obstacles you will encounter in a stock car....u need to pick your poison....

there is a reason why NHRA doesn't run mustangs with flomasters and a computer upgrade for the big money....

as boring as car audio already is it only going to get worse for the spectators if we continue to make everything easy....

peoples attitude is like this these days (why should I build a car to beat mark e when I can get a world championship with very little effort)

ok im done rambling for now

TeamCobra1 wrote:

I think they should do away with the one seat judging all together...I've never had a custom dash and in 10years have very rarely been out scored on sound...application is everything if someone chooses to build a custom dash it will take longer to build but in the long run be easier to tune...on the other hand if u choose not to build you will have more time to tune for the obstacles you will encounter in a stock car....u need to pick your poison....

there is a reason why NHRA doesn't run mustangs with flomasters and a computer upgrade for the big money....

as boring as car audio already is it only going to get worse for the spectators if we continue to make everything easy....

peoples attitude is like this these days (why should I build a car to beat mark e when I can get a world championship with very little effort)

ok im done rambling for now

I agree way back when we all ran the same score sheets in IASCA that if my memory serves me correctly looks a lot like expert or ultimate score sheets now. I understand why they changed it but at the same time it is bad when a contest will over look a known weakness in one car to put it on an even playing field with a car with less weakness overall. That is why I suggested if there was a split split it between sq and install. Then again the arguement can be the install and everything that goes along with it should make it sound better...but in some cases people do really cool things to make their cars more logical to work on as well as look nice.