1 seat & 2 seat class???

First topic message reminder :

Here is my question...

Is there a FAIR way to have one seat and two seat judging in the same class?

discuss...

yeh, but I know 2 guys currently building this type of vehicle...so what would happen?

Chris's Studio Civic wrote:

I say we make it into a drinking game....everytime a judge gives you a bad comment about your car.....you take a shot of Tequila!

Damn , Id get wasted !!!! OK I am in -- LOLOL Mark do you type fast or what ??? LoLOloolLLL

Ultimately, it depends on the sanctioning organization's rules...

The USACi rules don't state anywhere what the requirements would be. Maybe I missed it, but I couldn't even find where the rules say which classes are one seat judging, and which ones are two seat judging.

Not that anyone in this forum cares, but the IASCA rules specifically state there must be two side by side front seat listening positions... But is that only for two seat classes, or for one seat classes as well.

But, if a car only has one front seat, how can it compete in a two seat class? Guess that depends on how the rules are interpreted...

And having one front and one back seat is not the same thing...

Besides, how easy would it be to make a system sound good with a center drive position. Not much of a challenge as far as sound goes... Even easier than tuning a system in a normal car to sound good from only the driver's seat.

If some knucklehead is going to totally re-engineer a car for center drive just to make it easier to get the audio system to sound good... What a waste of time... Why not just get rid of the car altogether, and simply set up a home audio system instead...

If they're doing it because it's a cool concept, to make the car drive better, perform better, to show off craftsmanship, etc, that's a different story... But just to make it easier to make it sound good...???

Probably should move this topic to the rules forum, and see what the power that be say about it...

Mark Eldridge

hmmm im not exactly sure if the excercise is to make a perfect sounding car, although it would seem to be easier. i think its an excersice of doing somehting different and unique. but they both will be trying to compete, i am sure of that. I personally think its kinda cool, and if they want to compete, in car audio then maybe they are in the expert class, who knows.... if you ask me, they should be in the one seat class.

So does USACi create an Expert One Seat Class...???

Sounds like Gary's building a center drive car.........

Nah...I'd be willing to bet Expert sound judges get in and out back to back, competitor can change nothing and then scores are averaged. But ultimately, this would be up to the head sound judge and Ralph at Finals.

nope i have no inclination to do such a thing..
I do know a guy in Florida and one in Atlanta working on cars to be one seat, RUMOR RUMORS RUMORS is that someone else wants to do the same. but no details yet.. i am just curious what the shake out would be...

Wasn't the center-drive idea knocked down back several years ago?
Something about a "spirit of competition" unwritten clause in the rules.
I agree with Mark on this one - move this to the Rules section or maybe let's start a new thread to see where this goes.

Jan and I are going to build an Expert vehicle someday, and I've been thinking of only putting one seat in it and just telling the judges to sit on each other's lap. I can't wait to have Doug and Nick judge the car and watch them try to figure out who sits in who's lap....

we know what would happen,,,,,

Champion wrote:

we know what would happen,,,,,

WINKER LEANS OVER AND WHISPERS TO WINGATE: "THIS TIME I GET TO BE ON TOP, ,,,, SNOOKUMS

That might be the funniest comment I have ever read on the forum!!!!! I am about to pee my pants!

hey chris , you do know there's a blue pill for that ,right?

You know... No one has really answered the question as to why they would want to build a center seat SQ car, other than to make it as easy as possible to get good staging and imaging qualities.

Is that the only driving factor??? Making your installation job that much easier, so that you can win a trophy???

Personally, I find the numerous challenges involved in making a two seat system sound as good as possible the real reason car audio is so interesting to me. I can not imagine building a car with a center seating position just because it would be easier to make it sound good.

I'd rather get a good pair of home or studio speakers, set them up in a nice room, and put my chair right in the middle, and it would sound way better than even a center drive car with an audio system. (Hmmm... I do this now...)

Does it sound like I'm dissing on competitors considering building a center drive car for SQ competition??? Well that's because I AM!

Come on... How easy does it need to be for some competitors these days... There are rarely more than 5 to 10 competitors in a class, and some still want to take the easy way out, so they don't have to spend the time and energy it takes to make a side-by-side seating position car sound good.

We had these same discussions in the mid 90's, when there were 35 cars in every one of the 14+ classes at Finals, and there were many, many more competitors that didn't get invited because there wasn't room. And the general philosophy then was, "Why make it so easy to make a car sound good. Let's keep it challenging, and make competitors really work to earn the title and the trophy."

My personal feelings are that the Expert class, as well as the top Pro classes, should stick to requiring two side-by-side seating positions. These classes should be the most challenging classes in the competition lanes, and allowing center seating positions would totally reduce the challenge to the point where every car will score almost identically. Man... How much fun would that be...

I've been getting back into SQ competition again, after several years away from the lanes, simply because it is fun to be around all my friends at the shows, and for the challenge presented in making my car, and helping others make their cars, sound as good as possible.

The challenge has already been reduced significantly with the addition of the one seat judging classes (Which have been a good thing to help keep some significant interest in the competition aspect of the industry).

But to even consider allowing center seating position cars to compete in the current upper level classes, in my opinion, would be on the rediculous side of the curve.

Open a new exhibition class strictly for center drive cars, and that's fine. It might attract some attention because of the creative nature of the installations, and possibly how close the systems could be made to sound like traditional home systems. But, it would be more show and wow factor involved than a real challenge to the competitors to have to overcome severe acoustical obstacles to make the system sound good.

I still feel that the biggest prize should be earned by the competitor that puts the most into learning, fabricating, installing, tuning, etc, to overcome the acoustical obstacles we now face. Making it so easy as to allow center seating positions just wouldn't be a challenge acoustically.

Anyway...


Anyone else...???


Mark Eldriege

I know our Team stands with Mark on this issue. One other thing...I would feel totally fine with you guys allowing one SQ judge to score...then 0 the other guy. LOL
Now granted, if a two seat car were to beat a true 'one seat car'...well, that wouldn't look good at all would it?
It's Ralph's call...Courts not out on this with IASCA either yet, from what I've heard.

there was a point where the intent was to get more competitors involved which was a good goal. a lot of us would take time to explain to newbies the classes and which one they'd best fit to become a better competitor. but this was not enough for some.


a big part of the problem was that some took this effort and got things watered down to their liking.let's be blunt: some folks wanted a gimme!
now i know each class has a few people who are going to have more financial resources than others. but, the fact is that sq is about hard work . regardless of you bank account ,you have to work at it to improve your car. this is why i always will love sq.

spend all the money you want, if that shop does not have connections to help improve your car sonically, or if ,
bare minimum, you don't know how to get good sound, you are going to lose.

the main problem is that you are dealing with people who are not competitive . they have no desire to push themselves in terms of stepping up to a higher level and bringing their best up a few notches. they want to manipulate things in their favor. the point of competition is the challenge that comes from knowing that someone does something better than you and finding a way to improve so that you can win.but they don't want to fight for it.

the aftermath is that our hobby has suffered. this is not the only reason. we all know there were other factor that led to the present situation. but for now we have to protect 2-seat judging. to me it is the heart of what makes sq a challenge. it helps restore the competitive challenge of a doing a reall sq car.
2 seat judging ,in the eyes of a real sq junkie, is the big challenge. we need that to push the hobby. other wise we'll end up becoming the kraco championships.

this horse is dead...

Is Kraco even around anymore, or do we have to resurrect that too? ROR

I agree with Mark, and as Sketoe eluded, all of Team Hybrids supports the concept of two front-mounted seats, next to one another (whether it be judged from just the driver's seat, or driver's and passenger seat simultaneously). The IASCA rules are pretty clear about this, at least.

By the way, those who have asked, I am not the one from Atlanta building a center-drive vehicle. Crap, I don't even have enough time to change out the factory 4 X 6" speakers in my daily driver:



Oh yeah baby, quad color body panels for the freakin' WIN.

Plus, who wants to see a bunch of front wheel drive cars at shows? LOL <stirs pot>

Scott, I was hopin that was your car..Ruperto and I need another convertible in the mix out there.

That should be a challenge for you...build a show winning convertible.

The 'vert is PIMP.

OK Mark,

In your training classes where do you place your listener when listening to your Genelec monitors? Off to the side or in the center at an equal distance from each monitor? The point is that this is the super fantasy way to set up you car. Yes, it pushes the envelope of what is conventional, but it is far from the easy way out. It takes a ton of work to get a car to the point where you can set up that kind of sound stage. The fact is people are building cars like this....it is just a matter of when will they be done.

its been done a few times before and IS the easy way out...I don't care if someone builds a car with a center drive or not...but it better be like stadium seating because one judge at a time is BS (or they both better be able to fit in the single seat)....the other 4 or 5 cars that have done this haven't been very successful anyway

Well, then it really shouldn't matter since the other cars that were built didn't do well. I guess it wasn't so easy for those guys if they were not able to have success with those previous efforts?

I still think build your car for 2 seat judging. That is how I will be building mine.

in all honesty you can place speakers in stock location, get you a gee-whiz headunit that does time alignment and for the majority of single point shows, you will take first. But that isn't building your car for competition, it is changing out the headunit.

they weren't very successful because back in the day there was so much competition that you really had to have your sh!t together....processors were very mediocre compared to now...its a different world these days

but anyway im not going to argue...anyone that turns a 5 person car into a 1 person isn't doing it because its never been done before or because its so much cooler....their doing it because it makes the vehicle way easier to tune....and yall know it....PERIOD

Yep, it's definitely the EASY WAY!!!

So it takes some time to move the controls, seat, etc... So what... That's just basic fabrication and installation detail work, and just about any knuckle dragging installer can make something look pretty these days. It takes time for sure... But it doesn't even come close to requiring the high level knowledge and tuning skills needed to make a sid-by-side two seat car sound good.

It's a whole different ball game when it comes to dealing with the very acoustically hostile environment we face when building a two-seat SQ car audio system. There is simply no way to totally overcome the path length differences, un-equal early reflections, etc, faced when building a system of this type. The installer/system tuner must spend a lot of time prioritizing, determining what compromises to make, trying as many different speaker placement and tuning options as possible, etc.

Designing a single center drive seat car audio system would be the easiest system to build, period. Don't even attempt to try to make the case that designing a center drive car for optimal SQ would be difficult from an acoustical standpoint, when compared to a two seat system.

I've got nothing against building a center drive car. I've seen some done really well, and some that were really awful. But Mickey's right... None of them have really sounded that good. But that's not because it wouldn't be an easy task. The installers of those cars to date have simply had priorities to make the car flashy for maximum show impact, and decided to sacrifice optimal acoustical priorities in order to make the car show better. Handling the optimal acoustical needs for best SQ in a center drive system would be CAKE!!!

Oh yea... The reason I sit right between the Genelec 1032A's is to establish a reference with which to compare car audio systems. The audio reference we each should have needs to be as solid, clean, and accurate as possible, so we know what to shoot for when desinging and tuning car audio systems.

In the SQ seminars, we start the class with the Genelecs, my large format monitors, and another set of inexpensive speakers. We listen to each, and switch between them to see what the differences can be between different reference systems. Some prefer the Genelecs, some prefer the big monitors, some prefer their own systems they have at home. They are all slightly different in their presentation, but they are all supremely better than any car audio system.

After we are familiar with the sound of the Genelecs in the optimal listening environment, I then proceed to screw things up by changing the path lengths, changing the on-axis direction of each speaker, adding reflections, absorption, etc, so everyone gets to hear what happens when the acoustical parameters are changed. We don't change the speaker, only the relative acoustical environment, which allows everyone to hear what happens in each situation. This makes it easier to correlate what is being heard in the car to the specific acoustical parameter is causing the problem.

So, yes, we listen to the Genelecs in the very best possible situation. But, we also listen to them in less than ideal situations too.

And Mickey, I saw your car yesterday... Those roof mounted speakers pointing down through the top of the car will work great. There's a big round enclosure over each of them now, and they look kind of like.... Well you get it. But what really makes them work well is the center mounted water bed. The pillow placement puts your head exactly centered between the left and right speakers, and the subwoofer playnig through the water bed below you gives you a really different perspective on sub-bass. And, there's the possibility that the single matress can be swapped out for a double mattress, so you can still do side-by-side listening...


Mark Eldridge

Well of course it would make the car easier to tune.

Look, all I am saying is that it takes a considerable amount of time to build any of our cars, and I can not see it taking less time or effort to build a center drive car. Yes once you get it up and running tuning would be easier in some aspects. In theory it should image and stage right out of the box, but that doesn't mean tonality is gonna be there. Fact is none of us has done it and we do not really know what would happen. If it does happen then I guess we will see how it goes.

I would imagine the one seat cars would shake down some creativity point in install for all the build work needed.
You can't tell me a judge is not going to think to himself "this better be the best crap I ever heard" before he judges it. It's brave...because it could cause a nasty ripple effect.
And, it is the easy way out. No offense to the installers...you guys are trying to push the install envelope...it's just my opinion that it's the easy way out and may be looked at as such in the lanes.