Lack of Support for SQ vehicles or competitors

First topic message reminder :

I just want to say how disgusted the guys are that are trying to run sound quality vehicles with the organization. There is very little or no support for us and we are treated in most cases as unwanted step children by the organization. I have talked with other major contestant groups (you know who you are) outside of our group and they feel pretty much the same. That was even more obvious at a show today when one of our guys practically had the beg Ralph Randall to come over and judge his vehicle for SQ, the show was already over and SPL had been completed, and he got judged just minutes before trophies were handed out. Since he had been the only one in his class, I am sure Ralph was going to let it go and just hand him a trophy. Our guy was expecting much more than to pay money and get a trophy(especially when the show was hosted by the owner of the organization, he expected things to be top notch), a true competitor and sportsman wants the be judged and critiqued on his system, not just pay money and get a PLASTIC trophy.(Ralph had a hard time even finding a SQ judging sheet; Is this a organization that plans for,expects, or wants SQ contestants?)

Several of us showed up to a event is McComb Miss. earlier this year, and the judge wasn't even properly prepared, and his equipment wouldn't work, after paying and waiting ALL day he finally said that he couldn't make the equipment work and called off the contest. To SUPPOSEDLY make it worth the people's time that traveled so far, he was going to give some points for everyones trouble but that never happened.

We already pay more than SPL competitors to be judged for SQ (why is that anyway) but we are the least of the worries on a most of the judges lists, UNDOUBTEDLY including the owner of the organization!

Now we have been told that SQ may permanantly disappear from the contest next year, if not enough interest in it occurs, but we are not told HOW MUCH interest it needs. We are doing our part, with building a minimum of 6 new vehicles this year, with more in the works, but we do not feel welcome or important at most events. The exception to this is the events that Mike Darville hosts. There maybe more judges that we have not met that care as much as he does, so I don't want to leave those good judges out. All we know that he does try to make it a good event for everyone and puts as much emphasis on SQ as the SPL.

CAR STEREO IS SO MUCH MORE THAN BURPING A DISTORTED 75 Hz NOTE! Almost any half baked Chinese product can do that now days, with some of them burning up in the process, I.E. (fires and smoke at Finals last year) Ralph, you and Wayne Harris have turned this sport into what it is today and it sure isn't that much, it doesn't educate people to GOOD car stereo or promoting safe, clean, nice, USABLE systems (and don't forget drivable). Its about what's easy for you and how you pad your pocket book. I understand making money, don't think I don't, but you have made car stereo as about as ONE DIMENSIONAL as it can be. SPL isn't even what it used to be and sure isn't a measure of how GOOD a stereo system is or really how powerfull a system is, its just distortion at frequencies I wouldn't even call sub bass. Vehicles you allow into the contest today would have NEVER been allowed in to a show in the past in the condition they are in, which in alot of cases are PITIFUL, and some DANGEROUS!

This will probably get yanked off this site rather quickly and I will probably be banned and ridiculed for speaking what so many really want to say, but it is the TRUTH and I have not said anything past the truth and sure didn't use a vulgarity to do it. Thank you for reading!

Signed,
Robert (Ray) Rayfield
with support from:
Mike Flanagan
TJ Lacharite
not to leave anyone elses name out, but couldn't contact you for permission!


P.S. I believe and hope there is enough integrity in this organization that none of our vehicles suddenly turn major losers because of voicing an honest observation and opinion.

Mike,

I was one of the SQ judges(USAC) at Scraping last year (2009). I WAS THERE ALL DAY SUNDAY. If anybody needed to be judged Sunday(we did SQ on Saturday by the way), I would have gladly done it. BUT NOBODY CAME AROUND ASKING.

Now in my defense I didn't hang around the spl tent all that much, but people knew trophies for DSN were going to be handed out Sunday and they should have known I was still there. Mark Eldridge was inside the building all day and he would have helped out if someone would have asked.

Sorry for your friend not getting to be judged.


Markey Dietrich

Markie,

He asked and they supposedly went and looked, they came back around and told him they could find no one to judge it. i am sure they didn't spend too much time looking. Mike Flanagan can tell you more because he was helping the guy look for contest personnel to fix the problem. I know this to be true because I was there when it all happened.

Hey Man,

I understand, somebody could have called Rick and Rick could have got hold of me. Or I bet Rick would have done it. Any way I wanted it to be known someone was there that could have done it.

Markey Dietrich

Well....I can say without a doubt we will continue on and support USACI. Good think about texas is there are alot of shows around to hit up. See all yall at Heatwave in Austin.

Matt_Sibley wrote:

Please PM me about the issue at Scrapin the Coast 2009. I do not remember this situation and I'd like to know who the guy spoke with and what came of the issue. In 2009 at Scrapin the Coast SQ was offered. However, all SQ judging was done by Rick Sellers for the USACi part of the event on Saturday so people could enter Deep South Nationals money round Saturday night. I don't recall any SQ being judged on Sunday of that event and apologize if a competitor was told it would be.

This year I was in charge of both SQ and SPL and did my best to accomodate all SQ competitors. I recommended all of them be judged sunday morning but would have judged someone saturday if they were unable to be there on Sunday. The past years when we allowed Rick to do Deep South Nationals we let him handle all SQ judging at the event. Apparently that caused issues and I apologize for the mishap and look forward to hearing the details regarding the situation. Thanks!

Mike Flanagan wrote:

The change was noticed (like i told you in my pm) Its great when a director sees a problem and corrects it. I think if we had more directors like that we wouldnt even be discussing this matter. Hey Todd isnt it funny that the answer to everything always seems to be education? Just thinkin out loud.....

In 2009, SQ was judged on Sunday until noon at the same place the the linear white chevy was judged on. On Sunday we had several intro cars that Ben Voller judged then at noon he drove back to Atlanta. At noon we had a crawfish lunch for competitors and judges and then sat around the loading dock while I finished the DSN awards.

There are 10000 plus people at Scrapin and we may have missed the car if he didn't come to the judging area.

Matt_Sibley wrote:

The past years when we allowed Rick to do Deep South Nationals we let him handle all SQ judging at the event. Apparently that caused issues and I apologize for the mishap and look forward to hearing the details regarding the situation. Thanks!

Matt please read this again and see if that sounds the way you wanted it to? Because if it is you threw me under the bus... When I was there just trying to help. Think about it.

Whats the deal with Deep South Nationals ?
Any more comming soon ? Info ?

Chris's Studio Civic wrote:

Well....I can say without a doubt we will continue on and support USACI. Good think about texas is there are alot of shows around to hit up. See all yall at Heatwave in Austin.

Really trying to figure out a way to get out there.

Rick, I don't think Matt intended on his statement "throwing you under the bus" bro. Not speaking for him but I didn't really take it that way. Major point though! The thing in common between this year and last year at STC was that USACi in general, but specifically the SQ side of things was way back in the corner by the loading dock.

I am speaking from being there both years. It is pretty much bulls**t when a competitor or even a spectator walking through the gate doesn't have a clue on where the Sound Competition is. Now, seasoned guys like us know, have been around and usually know who is running the show or at least who is involved with it. We would walk around and find out if nothing else. The problem I have with all of it is, if you are a newbie or just a spectator there weren't any signs or anything. Kills me how the directors for these TP shows attach themselves to huge truck/car shows, do no advertising, and setup somewhere at the show where their "out of the way" and expect people to come and find them. BS and always has been.

SPL generally has a tent of some sort where most can find it, but if you're SQ you have to hunt around, find out who to talk to, etc. Damn, it is not that expensive to hang a banner or two in a few key areas of an event to let folks know what's going on. Gotten to be too much hassle and this obviously turns away the new guys. Now, last year whoever didn't get judged maybe should have been there earlier but apparently weren't. I don't know so I am not pointing any fingers. Rick did an awesome job last year along with Ben. This year, Matt did a great job also even though he was hung doing all the SPL for most of the time. He did however let all us SQ guys know that he would be judging early Sunday morning and no one had a problem with it. He would have prob rather done it Sat but he was overwelmed with SPL and didnot have the time. I understand. No problem with any of that. My point to all the madness is too many times, the directors and show promoters take advantage of the SOUNDOFF portion of a major show, and expect WOULD BE COMPETITORS to find them and figure out what is going on. ENTRY FEES = MORE $$$ and are taken for granted. It needs to be made a little more user-friendly. And of course the other main problem is LACK OF ENOUGH JUDGING STAFF (mainly for SQ at almost EVERY EVENT). STC this year was however ran just fine but there are several other shows that we could all talk about.


Todd
TCAudio
TeamTCA

TeamTCA wrote:

Rick, I don't think Matt intended on his statement "throwing you under the bus" bro. Not speaking for him but I didn't really take it that way. Major point though! The thing in common between this year and last year at STC was that USACi in general, but specifically the SQ side of things was way back in the corner by the loading dock.

I am speaking from being there both years. It is pretty much bulls**t when a competitor or even a spectator walking through the gate doesn't have a clue on where the Sound Competition is. Now, seasoned guys like us know, have been around and usually know who is running the show or at least who is involved with it. We would walk around and find out if nothing else. The problem I have with all of it is, if you are a newbie or just a spectator there weren't any signs or anything. Kills me how the directors for these TP shows attach themselves to huge truck/car shows, do no advertising, and setup somewhere at the show where their "out of the way" and expect people to come and find them. BS and always has been.

SPL generally has a tent of some sort where most can find it, but if you're SQ you have to hunt around, find out who to talk to, etc. Damn, it is not that expensive to hang a banner or two in a few key areas of an event to let folks know what's going on. Gotten to be too much hassle and this obviously turns away the new guys. Now, last year whoever didn't get judged maybe should have been there earlier but apparently weren't. I don't know so I am not pointing any fingers. Rick did an awesome job last year along with Ben. This year, Matt did a great job also even though he was hung doing all the SPL for most of the time. He did however let all us SQ guys know that he would be judging early Sunday morning and no one had a problem with it. He would have prob rather done it Sat but he was overwelmed with SPL and didnot have the time. I understand. No problem with any of that. My point to all the madness is too many times, the directors and show promoters take advantage of the SOUNDOFF portion of a major show, and expect WOULD BE COMPETITORS to find them and figure out what is going on. ENTRY FEES = MORE $$$ and are taken for granted. It needs to be made a little more user-friendly. And of course the other main problem is LACK OF ENOUGH JUDGING STAFF (mainly for SQ at almost EVERY EVENT). STC this year was however ran just fine but there are several other shows that we could all talk about.


Todd
TCAudio
TeamTCA

Once again, Todd you hit the nail on the head.

If a new competitor, who was not attached to a team, came to some of these shows, they would be lost. At some of the big car/truck shows, the show staff can't even tell you where the contest is located! You have to drive/walk around to find where you are supposed to be. And sometimes you can't even find a place to park because of all the car/truck club reserved areas. I'm here to tell you that some of those clubs get down right nasty if you park in "their" area (Showfest in Tunica!).

You can't forget that some of these shows, vendors actually show up. At Tunica, Kicker was on the oppsite end of the show grounds from the contest. Granted the contest was stuck in some back parking lot reserved for trailer parking. Wouldn't it make sense for the stereo vendors to be located near the contest? Lack of communication with the show staff????

Very few vendors show up or support USACI anymore. Maybe due to all the issues? Kicker was at Tunica more in support of the Truck & Car show than the stereo contest. Did you ever see any of those guys come to the "Back 40" where the stereo contest was---- NO!

Was there any major vendor at Scrapin' this year'? If there was I didn't see them, the dealer had their booth inside with a local independant rep for one company in their booth, but no national level representation from any manufacturer that I am aware of. Todd, can you correct me on this or not, maybe I missed a major booth somewhere, if there was they sure were not around the stereo contest area. A lot of these issues that any of us are bringing up are not all just SQ specific issues, they are organizational problems which affect the outcome of the whole contest. But I know we are looked at as the "whining SQ guys", I have heard that for many, many years, and I am sure that is still the feeling.

I forget though I am just riding the band wagon according to Ralph, I was the "King" of SPL and shouldn't care about SQ. WRONG! I have always built quality vehicles, that looked good, sounded good, and did SPL (and probably not as much SPL as I could have by allowing for SQ and quality looks). No way would I want the be lumped in the group called SPL nowdays, for the MOST part these are ugly, unfinished, cosmetically challenged vehicles that cannot even play real music, and as I said in the very first post of this thread, this has become a contest centered on one dimension (SPL) and only concerned about burbing distorted 75 Hz notes. Again car stereo should be so much more than this. Instead of improving over the years it has gone totally backward. In the first days of car stereo contests, when even a few people ran around with their Marantz, or Cerwin Vega home speaker boxes sliding around in the back, it still looked better and sounded better in most cases(SPL wise that is) than what we have today. Of course that was the earliest days of car stereo and the contest, and we designed the contest rules around making the cars better and make the contestants build to a higher and higher levels. So over time car audio and the contests improved, now all of that has gone down hill in a very big way, affected mainly by what the contests allow people to do, whether it is USACI or dB Drag, the contests are largely responsible for steering people toward better or worse designs. You decide which way we have gone "for better or for worse" and I don't think it was for richer or till death does us apart either LOL. It may however, be the death of the car stereo contest though. It can't get much lower in its expectations.

Ray, as far as I remember, you are right. Other than boy Erik at Kinetik, who has been and is still, one of the few USACi supporters, then NO there wasn't any major Manufacturer at the show. Empress Audio did have a huge booth inside, with company Reps, displaying and selling product (Pioneer and Kenwood, I know). They were and have been (Empress Audio) one of the main show sponsors for years so they had every right to do what they did. It is sad though that NO others were there. What happened to all the big guns??? Well like I said a long time ago, without Manufacturer support shows will suffer (at least from the SoundOff side of things). There is a reason why RF, Kicker, MTX, and many others have chosen to support other sports outside of stereo competitions and it is sad.

I/we (TeamTCA) have had a little luck with some (minor) support from some of the manufacturers whose product I sell in my store at a few of the LOCAL shows that were here in ARK. Crap, its hard to even get free tshirts to give away anymore much less any type of product. This is a different economy than it was 10 years ago but when you don't have support from the guys whose products you sell and install in cars that compete and show off their gear------what's the point anymore. I really wish it was the way it used to be and I try to do my part when I go to a show.....wag my bigass trailer around, make displays, setup tents, open up and display nice installs in cars that we have done, talk to anyone that comes by, and try to get any kind of interest in SQ that I can....but I CANNOT control how many others actually show up, who runs the show, and damn sure how well it is organized or not.

Bottom line is USACi (Ralph) needs help. More judges (qualified, of course), more support (from manufacturers), and just plain willingness of more competitors to try and help with each event as well. It is hard however when you show up at the BIG EVENTS and find out that SQ is way back in the corner somewhere. SQ needs to be placed higher up on the priority list by everyone involved, including the SPL guys. Who usually get their trophies first??? Not always but most of the time. There are several small things that could be modified in the current "show" structure to show USACi's willingness to give SQ an honest and fair shot to grow but it is definitely gonna take help....


Todd
TCAudio
TeamTCA

You know...if you sit here and think which speaker/amp/elec manufacturers support SQ guys I come up with:

Hybrid Audio
JBL
Focal
ArcAudio
Zapco
Ultra
DbDrive
JLAudio
Linear Power/Blues
Kinetik
IXOS
Elettromedia (Audison/Hertz)
Image Dynamics


who else?

What I'm getting at here, is that these are the 'approach' companies. 'we' are on their 'radar'. Maybe these are the manufacturers there to help us...maybe shops that sell these should pay attention to this as well. USACi, IASCA, and MECA surely all pay attention to these as well. At one of the '3's Finals all of the above have had a booth except maybe ID and IXOS...correct?

It's not a question of who supports the SQ competitor but which companies will support USACI, and there doesn't seem a lot of them that still do. I know I support my guys, and I know a lot of other companies support their guys in different ways.

Back in the day when the contest was about more than just SPL, major speaker and amp companies wanted to support it, not many companies other than those interested in just SPL want to put much time or money behind it now, because the return for them is minor. Who is going to go out and build a non-drivable vehicle, with bare wood, ugly enclosure and just sit around and belch out 75 Hz tones? It has to be a realistic system to be sellable and usable. Nothing against the great SQ guys either but the majority of those winners have un-attainable systems too. The contest evolved from showing and judging financially attainable systems that were usable on a everyday basis to the two extremes from High SPL systems to exotic SQ vehicles. We have the trailer queens of SQ or the non street leagal undrivable SPL vehicles of today.

That is at least what our group has been doing, is showing that you still can have reasonably affordable vehicles that can compete very well in SQ even though we may not be as high a level of exotics as the continual national winners we still place in the top numbers and we do it with minimal equipment and no DTA processing. This is what the majority of consumers wants, especially in a financially strapped market. We have got to educate and show the consumer/spectator not just the competitors that this is something they can have too. If someone does come to the contest as a spectator he is either turned off by the un-usable SPL vehicles or the over priced SQ vehicles. To them there is no middle ground they can fall into, at least not from viewing the contests.

If we can show that the contests are a viable venue for promotion and sales of stereo equipment I am sure we could get more corporate support, but you are not going to do it when all it supports is SPL in the wrong way, and with minimal organizational skills.

As far as manufacturers being at regional events or finals, I think you may have had one or two actually have their own booths but for the most part it was the participating dealers having their booths showing their products and maybe having a factory personel in to assist in their booth. I cannot speak for any shows or contest organizations other than the USACI events I have attended with in the last year and a half, but what I gather from Todd Crowder and others that this is pretty much true in what they have seen too.

all of the manufacturers I listed have had a booth at Finals (usac or meca or iasca) as far as I know...maybe a couple havent. Some, yes only support the competitor, which is not bad at all...if not, even better...that in the end is still supporting the org. as a result.
You kind of had to read between the lines of what I was posting. May not have been clear.
trailer 'queens' will happen...sorry...but I've been the guy competing my daily driver so I get what you are saying totally. I don't have an issue with the upper eschelon of sq cars...they make us work harder, yes...some will get turned off, but more will get interested once they see those cars are in the higher classes.

Ah... "trailer queens"

Yep I have one. Why? Because I am a lazy SOB. I don't want to run around looking for carwashes in a strange town. I rather back IGGY out, dust her off a touch and go COMPETE.

As long as these vehicles are in the upper classes, they have their place. You don't race a Cup car on a 1/4 mile dirt track in Nowhere USA, you race it in front of 100,000 people.

At one of my first shows I saw a guy and his wife with a trailer queen. I don't remember who, but he was a pro. He was so laid back, sitting next to his car, I wanted someday to match that guy.

That was my goal, to become a pro in this sport. Winning a championship was also a goal.

Sketoe, when you bring the Regal and the Vett to a show which one is the trailer queen? lol just bustin your balls lol

You guys might not know but there is/was a rule on the books where a director could reclassify a competitor if the vehicle was more advanced than the class entered. Pity it was never really used that much........

Markey Dietrich

Since 1995...... competitor, supporter, judge and pain in the ass

funny stuff......"trailer queens"....LOL

Most of us didn't start there but some of us ended up there. Very well put Markey, I too remember way back in the day when I saw the "big guns" at a show with enclosed trailers and there I was driving mine to the event and yes, looking for a freaking car wash...still the "good old days"...That was my goal for some day! Everyone needs a goal to strive for...

anyway....no NEED to be getting off topic talking about caliber of vehicles and how they get to the shows...POINT is that at least a few of us DO GET TO THE SHOWS and support SQ...

Let's stay on point...
1. Organization
2. Judges (qualified folks, of course)
3. Manufacturer support (more anyway)
4. More support in general (which applies to all the above)



TC
TCAudio

Never said there was anything wrong with a "Trailer Queen", we just need more in the mid and lower end in SQ too. I think the point was missed that the more new blood we can attract to the sport, the more competitors we have to add more pressure to the contest to improve SQ, the more SQ cars we have the more interest we are going to have from manufacturers and the organization itself. Yes, we all go and support SQ as much as we can, but if the majority of these cars are the upper eschelon the person considering joining is overwelmed at what level he perceives that he has to start that he will never start. The majority of the guys trying to support SQ are of the "old guard" that have made it to the top and so their vehicles reflect it, we just need to be sure we are letting the new guy know he isn't expected to have to start or compete at that level. Not everyone has 40-50K or more to sink in a install, even 10K is pushing it for most in these times, we need to keep our feet planted on the ground when thinking about getting more people interested in it. All I ever hear is SPL is cheap and SQ is too expensive to do. I say BS, it doesn't have to be, but that is what is percieved by most.

I am one of those veterans who is also a new guy install sort of dude.

I have it installed in a 98 mustang with 130k miles on the odo, and I have stock rims, stock paint, stock interior aside from the 4" rip in the driver's side seat. But the car does show well, and for a faded dented exterior, it does look decent. I drive it to every show I go to and have added 10k miles to it this season alone. It is not a 50K install, it is very affordable and the install is straight forward and to the point. Easy install, excellent sound. Something I think any SQ competitor new or not can afford. I would be happy to show my car to any one that is interested. am I the silent minority?

me=fat and lazy and don't want to clean it nor want to put a lot of miles on it...ie I've created a trailer queen.

It's the same old story by the time we get to the end of the thread. Just as Todd summed up. SO there is one recurring problem year after year and we also all need to get out there and compete and get involved. Short and sweet.

My truck just turned 300,000 miles on the way back from Scrapin !!!

1

TeamTCA wrote:

funny stuff......"trailer queens"....LOL

Most of us didn't start there but some of us ended up there. Very well put Markey, I too remember way back in the day when I saw the "big guns" at a show with enclosed trailers and there I was driving mine to the event and yes, looking for a freaking car wash...still the "good old days"...That was my goal for some day! Everyone needs a goal to strive for...

anyway....no NEED to be getting off topic talking about caliber of vehicles and how they get to the shows...POINT is that at least a few of us DO GET TO THE SHOWS and support SQ...

Let's stay on point...
1. Organization
2. Judges (qualified folks, of course)
3. Manufacturer support (more anyway)
4. More support in general (which applies to all the above)



TC
TCAudio

I agree we need to stay on the points Todd has listed. They are the heart of the problem. They are the reason why SQ in USACi is losing intrest, just as BrianS pointed out in his post. Another one lost!!!!!!

But, linearpower (Ray) touches on a point that is very intimidating to the entry level folks. Trailer Queens, exotic installs, what every you want to call them. They are the ones highlighted by all the publications, websites, etc. Entry level folks see those and think that is the amount of money it takes to compete. Way back when I competed in the "old" days, I was very imtimidated by those systems, even though most of the owners (some of you guys) were just some of the nicest, most helpful folks a person could meet.

I agree with you guys that "Trailer Queens" tend to be evolutions of a systems that have grown through years of competing. If I ever finish getting my GN together, it will be a Trailer Queen also . There I go, contributing to the image.

In order to get more competitors, we have to convince, encourage, promote, and give confidence to the new and low budget competitors that they have a place where they belong and can be competitive within an Organization that works.

Thanks Brian for your acknowledgement of efforts made.

Putting it plain and simple: I will support any org that supports my beliefs, not with just words, but in action! These beliefs are:

1:I will build only quality car stereo vehicles that not only get loud but look and sound good doing it!(Alexis Hills mini spl truck does 180.9 db and plays music And looks great!)


2: A car stereo contest should be about the competitors, NOT the directors or leaders of that event.

3: Wether you do spl or sq you should HAVE FUN! PERIOD!

Wow.......I have heard that before somewhere.....LOL. Well put bro. See you guys in Austin.

Amen,Markie!

You know I messaged Ralph in private, last Friday with a couple other issues that have not been brought public (yet). I wanted to give him a chance to respond and act on them as he said he would if contacted. I have yet to hear anything back from him. It is near impossible to even get anything more than an answering machine at the office, and if you get more than that you can't get through to Ralph 99.9% of the time, someone tells you he is unavailable.

Now before any newcomers think I have an axe to grind with Ralph, it's the furthest thing from the truth. Actually I like Ralph. We go back quite a way. I have had his back once or twice when he needed it. He has also cut me some slack when I really steped in it.

I only want him to make a move, either allow SQ to grow or just kill it and let the competitors find another venue.

Markey Dietrich

Since 1995 competitor, supporter, judge and general pain in the ass

MDietrich wrote:

Now before any newcomers think I have an axe to grind with Ralph, it's the furthest thing from the truth. Actually I like Ralph. We go back quite a way. I have had his back once or twice when he needed it. He has also cut me some slack when I really steped in it.

I only want him to make a move, either allow SQ to grow or just kill it and let the competitors find another venue.
Markey Dietrich

Since 1995 competitor, supporter, judge and general pain in the ass

As we've seen from BrianS's post above, competitors are already moving on to other venue's. I think you stated it correctly.