Consumer vs Pro

What is the advantage of a pro competitor vs a consumer now a days?

none

hey hey...I heard you ask this at the meeting...I was passing this out for everyone to discuss...LOL

1. Time: If a consumer has slow time at work, they rarely can work on their own cars. Certain pros do have that ability.

2. Access to work space: many consumers work in driveways and garages. Pros generally have access to shops.

3. Access to manufacturers: Most consumers, or at least the real consumer, do not have direct access to a manufacturer and rarely has the opportunity to get one off equipment, or more importantly talking to the engineers of the products

4. Cost of Equipment: Pros are generally either free or deeply discounted. A true consumer is paying MSRP or thereabouts.

5. Damaged equipment: Consumer--dead equipment generally means sending off to repair or being hosed if it happens 1 hour before a show. pros can generally grab a replacement fairly fast.



There is a difference between a pro competitor and a TRUE amateur/consumer competitor. There have been several consumer/amateur competitors who "break' the curve because they have been sandbagging. Take out the sandbaggers and look around and you will see some true amateurs and consumers. They are at a serious disadvantage to the pros.

There are also some pros that are in the pro class for various reasons when they really shouldn't be--but by the rules they are. it's a tough learning curve for them. Hell I went pro because Hooker Audio gave me $10.00 in RCA barrells years ago. I was a consumer based on everyting else, but I got $10.00 worth of barrells free from a manufacturers which by definition meant I was a pro. So I competed pro. That was a helluva learning curve.

Don't let the most painfully obvious high profile amateurs skew your view of the true consumer. The kid working at McDonalds and buying equipment from his local shop and installing and tuning it in his driveway. or even the kid working at McDonalds and paying a shop to install it and tune it. That kid still is a consumer and he is much diferent from a pro competitor.

When another organization got rid of pro and amateur I made the comment that no one complained. A true amateur pointing out to me, that some did complain, they just didn't do it on forums. Some just walked.

If you are a pro, it is easy to say there is no difference. If you are a TRUE consumer, I guarantee you the view of that mountain is totally different.

i can tell ya that being a true consumer for the first part of the season i got so hoesed and no one wanted to give me any advice or even help me out but i have moved up fast and there is a very big differnce

I agree with above statements.... there are a big difference between a true consumer and a seasoned pro...... the problem is there arent many true consumers... most consumers probably should be in the pro class. at least everyone of the consumers that stand out in my mind should be...

Thats the truth champ. these arent the old days when people moved up when they got 10.00 of anything free. these days i know so many consumers who get things you really might as well make it one class or be more critical on that issue. Even if you look at most consumer cars they could easily compete in pro. I discovered that clearly this year at Finals. Even with my car...i used to could hang with some of these cars 5, 6 years ago. But now there is no way i could even begin to keep up with these consumer cars. you might as well not even use a daily driver as a competition vehicle (even though there are some) because the line between consumer and pro has become so blurred.

As much as I would like to agree that there are some true to rule book consumer's out there. I cannot name one person I know.

Most start out part of a season then slowly move to getting deals.

How many pro's start out in intro, 0 this year at finals.

If something is going to done then make it that anyone that works or affiliated with the industry must compete intermediate or higher.

I would much rather see something like basic intermediate and advanced intermediate.

Based on something like years as a competitor, world championship, vehicle mods. Use some sort of criteria to place people in either basic or advanced.

I also believe if you won Finals in a specific class you should be forced to move up.

If you are basic intermediate then you would have to move to advanced intermediate ect.

Hope this made sense.

Champion wrote:

I agree with above statements.... there are a big difference between a true consumer and a seasoned pro...... the problem is there arent many true consumers... most consumers probably should be in the pro class. at least everyone of the consumers that stand out in my mind should be...

I totally agree with this statement. My first year out I was a "True Consumer". I paid retail for my equipment and paid a shop to put itn in and tune it. The next year I took a job at the shop mostly answering the phone and ordering stock from a list handed to me. I still had to move up to the Pro classes even though I could hardly install myself out of a wet paper bag.

I would go so far as to say that the consumer may even have the upper hand in some ways these days. I'll provide an example. Not using anyones name. We'll call it "brand X".

We wanted to know just how far one of our lines had gone to make money regardless of where it came from. We called a manufacture one day (pretending to be a consumer) and stated where we were from geographically. We asked where would be the best place to buy their products. We were informed that we should try a certain website. They were authorized e-tailers for the products. So we went to the website and low and behold their price was below our dealer cost. Hmm...

Consumers can jump on e-bay as well and buy new or used equipment for dirt cheap. Many of the consumers in the classes above intro have enough background to call a manufacture and get very deep discounts.

My point being that equipment price is no longer a disadvantage to the consumer. And in fact may be a diadvantage to the pro in some instances.

Now let's move on to Andy's point about pro's possibly having an advantage in the aspect of a place to work on their car. I can't speak for any other shop out there but it is a rule at our place that the bays stay open for potential business. We are to work on our own vehicles after hours on our own time. With few exceptions to this rule.

Further more those that are what I qualify as true consumers have their work done at a qualified shop anyway. Now as for the rest of them. I prefer to call them DIY rather than consumers. And some of these folks do far better work than a great amount of shops out there. There are a lot of very good DIY installers out there. I believe most of them have some connections in the industry and have found a way to go around retailers all together when it comes to sound competition.

The exceptions are what I would refer to as the true consumers. They pay retail or close for equipment and install. But they also have the retailers installation and tuning skills to use to their advantage in the lanes.

Either way I look at it I don't see an advantage to being Pro in the lanes this day and age. With exception going to the new guys interested in jumping into competition. Some of them may be true consumers. But after that first year they will turn into consumers with an edge. Whether it's a qualified shop doing their work and selling them equipment or the DIY consumer getting in with the manus and doing great work themselves.

Some of the "consumer" folks have moved into the Pro lanes and kicked ass. Whether it be because the shop they hired did a great job or they just downright out installed and out tuned us "pro" guys and gals wit their own DIY car.

I don't see an advantage either way. If a competitor wants to win he or she will do what it takes.

all good points.....

SQLAltima wrote:

1. Time: If a consumer has slow time at work, they rarely can work on their own cars. Certain pros do have that ability.

2. Access to work space: many consumers work in driveways and garages. Pros generally have access to shops.

3. Access to manufacturers: Most consumers, or at least the real consumer, do not have direct access to a manufacturer and rarely has the opportunity to get one off equipment, or more importantly talking to the engineers of the products

4. Cost of Equipment: Pros are generally either free or deeply discounted. A true consumer is paying MSRP or thereabouts.

5. Damaged equipment: Consumer--dead equipment generally means sending off to repair or being hosed if it happens 1 hour before a show. pros can generally grab a replacement fairly fast.



There is a difference between a pro competitor and a TRUE amateur/consumer competitor. There have been several consumer/amateur competitors who "break' the curve because they have been sandbagging. Take out the sandbaggers and look around and you will see some true amateurs and consumers. They are at a serious disadvantage to the pros.

There are also some pros that are in the pro class for various reasons when they really shouldn't be--but by the rules they are. it's a tough learning curve for them. Hell I went pro because Hooker Audio gave me $10.00 in RCA barrells years ago. I was a consumer based on everyting else, but I got $10.00 worth of barrells free from a manufacturers which by definition meant I was a pro. So I competed pro. That was a helluva learning curve.

Don't let the most painfully obvious high profile amateurs skew your view of the true consumer. The kid working at McDonalds and buying equipment from his local shop and installing and tuning it in his driveway. or even the kid working at McDonalds and paying a shop to install it and tune it. That kid still is a consumer and he is much diferent from a pro competitor.

When another organization got rid of pro and amateur I made the comment that no one complained. A true amateur pointing out to me, that some did complain, they just didn't do it on forums. Some just walked.

If you are a pro, it is easy to say there is no difference. If you are a TRUE consumer, I guarantee you the view of that mountain is totally different.

I agree. I purchased all my product for the yukon msrp.... take that back I saved a few bucks below msrp but nowhere near map. About 1 year later I took a job at an audio shop which carried none of the product i ran and had nothing to do with the install so I had to run pro. I have never installed a pair of speakers in my life. I understand the basics but would never run the risk of blowing anything so I left the install to the pros. Even had to take my processor to Atlanta to be tuned. My shop affiliation which I know longer have( work there that is) still talk to them on a daily basis makes me a pro. My purchase of the product and skill level make me a consumer. I guess I never understood that much. I know when I worked at the shop I could by product at cost and I did for my s-10 but I never competed with that vehicle. We carried practically every brand but none of the product I had in the Yukon. Its midnight so I hope this makes sense.

Technically speaking...a consumer is a consumer. If I pay full price Im a consumer. If I pay 50% of cost Im still a consumer. I just got a discount. And there are some people who get bigger discounts than that...like free! This is a big issue. At least between consumer and pro.

the cost of the product should have nothing to do with whether you are consumer or pro.... rules to to reflect this as well... who cares where or what you paid for it..... the point is you got it,,, now what are you doing with it? if it is professionally installed then your pro! whether you can professionally install it or if you paid for it.... back yard is back yard we can all tell the difference.

We will have to agree to disagree

fine with me.....
the whole concept of rookie, or consumer, or pro or expert, as well are all outdated.... the cars should be divided either by modifications to the vehicle, which is how every other car show, or car racing event is! or should be divided by the competitors experience,,,, This hobby/sport as evolved and this is a fully developed market... we have never been able to police the current ways of classification... someone always has an oportunbity for a better deal! that is life... the competitors experience cant be argued by anyone... you either have been competing and are now seasoned or your not... you either have modified your vehicle or you have not.... and this is how they should be classified and divided....

I kind of tend to agree. So much in this sport seems to be so blurry and unconcrete when it comes to competing. Whether if its being judged on SQ points points or who is a consumer vs pro or judges. We really need to get something more concrete. Either we can see it and qualify it or not. At least to minimize the bias.

SQLAltima wrote:

1. Time: If a consumer has slow time at work, they rarely can work on their own cars. Certain pros do have that ability.

2. Access to work space: many consumers work in driveways and garages. Pros generally have access to shops.

3. Access to manufacturers: Most consumers, or at least the real consumer, do not have direct access to a manufacturer and rarely has the opportunity to get one off equipment, or more importantly talking to the engineers of the products

4. Cost of Equipment: Pros are generally either free or deeply discounted. A true consumer is paying MSRP or thereabouts.

5. Damaged equipment: Consumer--dead equipment generally means sending off to repair or being hosed if it happens 1 hour before a show. pros can generally grab a replacement fairly fast.



There is a difference between a pro competitor and a TRUE amateur/consumer competitor. There have been several consumer/amateur competitors who "break' the curve because they have been sandbagging. Take out the sandbaggers and look around and you will see some true amateurs and consumers. They are at a serious disadvantage to the pros.

There are also some pros that are in the pro class for various reasons when they really shouldn't be--but by the rules they are. it's a tough learning curve for them. Hell I went pro because Hooker Audio gave me $10.00 in RCA barrells years ago. I was a consumer based on everyting else, but I got $10.00 worth of barrells free from a manufacturers which by definition meant I was a pro. So I competed pro. That was a helluva learning curve.

Don't let the most painfully obvious high profile amateurs skew your view of the true consumer. The kid working at McDonalds and buying equipment from his local shop and installing and tuning it in his driveway. or even the kid working at McDonalds and paying a shop to install it and tune it. That kid still is a consumer and he is much diferent from a pro competitor.

When another organization got rid of pro and amateur I made the comment that no one complained. A true amateur pointing out to me, that some did complain, they just didn't do it on forums. Some just walked.

If you are a pro, it is easy to say there is no difference. If you are a TRUE consumer, I guarantee you the view of that mountain is totally different.

I agree John
My install was done not in a garage, but outside, mostly in the winter when work was slow.
It sucks working in 30 degree weather, but the love for the sport is what keeps me going.
I agree with you 100%., there are definite differences between consumer and pro, perhaps not on the score sheet as far as judging, but as far as what it takes to compete.

When I built my regal the first time it was 100percent in my drive-way. i worked at a shop, we were not allowed to work in the bay on our own cars on store time, nor after hours, only on days off... well usually when i was off the bay was full anyways, from other jobs and other installers... it took a long time to build... every board was cut witha 29.95 dollar craftsman jig saw... every board was sanded with a 39.95 dollar crafstman sander.. and every piece of vynul was glued on with spray glue from a can... eitther to got the ability or you dont... i dont mean to be rude or anything.. but that is what I am getting from this... so maybe we should call the classes.... no skills,,, skills, and really got skills..............

Bottom line is that some people dont have the skills. Some people are gifted when it comes to installing. But some people got deep pockets and can pay people for what they cant do. I had to work on my car outside in the driveway and garage to...in this damn wisconsin snow and cold a lot of times also. And quit honestly I still do.

Champion wrote:

fine with me.....
the whole concept of rookie, or consumer, or pro or expert, as well are all outdated.... the cars should be divided either by modifications to the vehicle, which is how every other car show, or car racing event is! or should be divided by the competitors experience,,,, This hobby/sport as evolved and this is a fully developed market... we have never been able to police the current ways of classification... someone always has an oportunbity for a better deal! that is life... the competitors experience cant be argued by anyone... you either have been competing and are now seasoned or your not... you either have modified your vehicle or you have not.... and this is how they should be classified and divided....

I like this point. The more experienced I get, the more mods I make in order to accumulate more points.
Many may disagree with this next comment, but you can make a car sound very good without modification, but to compete at the top level, and the cars that are at that level, have some serious mods to them.
I consider myself an experienced competitor, and like a lot of other competitors, could be able to do anything with my vehicle, but time and money are the biggest issue when it comes to making serious mods.

I am afraid that we will never find a way that works for everyone, but that shouldn't keep us from trying to evolve the system to keep up with the changes.

Or maybe even come up with 3 classes... and call them...
Class Sketoe
Class Darville
Class Goudy
Class Randall
And very score sheet is exactly the same...
The first time of the season that you compete you are automatically in Class Sketoe... And depending on your score, you will get placed in Class Darville or Class Goudy or Class Randall or have to stay in Class Sketoe.... So your scoresheet will tell the truth about the qaulity of your car. The better your first score and the better your car is the higher the class you get put into... then no-one can sand bag or get free product when they shouldnt etc etc etc..... So it would kind of be like your first show, would be a holding event, that stages you for the rest of the season,,, however. if your car progresses and you make it better as the season goes along. once your score reaches a certain level, you could or would get bumped up to the next level.... this is truly the only way to keep things fair.... and to keep everyone competeing in the appropriate class......

Hey, bowling has a hanidicap. You handicap varies each bowling night based on your last weeks scores?!?.....

How about handicap classes. have handicap classes for SQ?

That what your saying Gary? If so I like it.

I see what he's saying...the name of the class doesn't matter...it's a progression and all classes are using the same scoresheet.

eaxctly correct fellas... i was just adding some humor to it,, lol
cmon, thats funny dont matter where ya from! lol

that way everyone competes against whom they should be competing against... and then no matter how much money you have or dont have you will compete against "alike" competition.... that is truly the only way to make it fair and keep it fair.... and ultimately the top class will be full of competitors, also it should have some kind of reward, such as money or a new car etc.... and if that is the pinnacle where everyone strives to be, then it will get big... that way the entry level classes alway have new blood coming in or no bladd at all,,,, but the newbies will always be excited, cecause they wont ever be sand bagged on, and everyone will alwsy want to try and move up to the top class if thats where the reward is at....

Constructive ideas!!! Do you ALL really think that ONLY 4 CLASSES will get it done??? There's been so much talk about an SQ facelift and revamp that I am getting confused myself.

It's either modify/improve the current "type" of structure or just scrap the whole thing and start over.. My problem with only a minimum number of classes (say 4) is that for those of us out here that build cars, we will end up with all or MOST of our guys in the same class. I don't like that. You too Gary. Same situation.

How long till one of your competitors doesn't want to compete against another build from the same shop because of NEW more simplified classes. Is it really fair?? Obviously, everybody can't agree.

Pretty soon though, some sort of decision needs to be made on what the NEW DEAL is going to be. More discussion or what??

Basic, more simple classes would probably be the fairest to put like cars in like classes but with no more division than that (only having four), I see several guys dropping out. Think what you want, but I can guarantee you that's what will happen with guys competing out of my shop. And this will also effect future builds.

Easy to come up with new ideas, but what is going overall be the best for USACI as a whole???

Just my thoughts. If that even matters...LOL


Todd Crowder
TeamTCA
24 World Championships

Would be more than 4 classes. That is just an example. I spoke to goudy about it at length today. Classes based on your actual score at THAT EVENT.

i have the same concerns that Todd has and a couple of more. I think the reason that car shows do so much better then sound comps. is that they have classes for just about everything. i am not saying we have to go to that extreme. My point is that the more classes you offer the more chance that new people have to win or do well. Basically it keeps things positive for all and that is important if this is going to grow . that is also one of the reasons that SPL dose better then SQ.

I would also like to say that maybe at this point there may not be any advantage between pro and consumer. But there should be. A PRO SHOULD GET PAID!!!!!!

I was under the impression that since there were currently 10 SQ classes now, then a total revamp could be made and new class structure just so we didn't exceed the original 10 classes total.

This is stuff I need to know or I would think everyone needs to know. I have no problem with doing something a little different, but still needs to be more than 4. I think 10 is a good number. I don't know how many SPL classes there are but I would guess in upwards of 25, at least.

So what's the difference? Those deciding the "NEW" SQ layout, format, etc NEED to be in the know on what is the FINAL LIMIT going to be??


TC
TeamTCA

Oh, and just for the record....IMO I think there should be a difference between PRO and CONSUMER but I am up for change.

The only way I could feasibly see Pro and Consumer going away IMO would be more division...something like 5 or 6 classes worth of split depending on mods to the vehicle.