Rules and Ethics Decision 08/18/2009

First topic message reminder :

08/18/2009

Sq Classes Rules and Ethics decision.


For many years sound quality has been judged in a vehicle by one or two judges. As a rule this is done from the drivers seat primarily and then the drivers and passengers seats in the case of two judges. As vehicle building has improved the modifications to the vehicle have continued to push the envelope and force changes in the judging rules.

The recent introduction of a center seat vehicle has brought to the forefront just how creative competitiors are becoming with their vehicles. Along with this creativity comes new challenges for the judging staff. In the case of center drive and/or rear seat vehicles we are forced to review what makes an automobile and automobile and how to define the same without hindering creativiy and workmanship.

Current model US automobiles come with two seats, one for the drive and one for the passenger. The driver is always located left of center and the passenger right of center. Some vehicles come without rear seats but none come without front seats. As such we must make the following determination:



In USACI Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, and Expert classes all vehicles must have a drivers and passengers seat. The drivers seat must keep the driver and all parts of his/her person to the left of the vehicle center line. If the driver and passenger cannot sit in the vehicle without intruding on one another then the vehicle will not qualify as a two seat vehicle. All drivers and passenger seats must be “Front Seats” and may not be moved to the rear so far as to eliminate the possibility of a rear passenger in vehicles that come with rear passenger seats. Interpretation and application of this rule will be at the discretion of the head Sq judge at any given event.



Furthermore, USACI will at the 2009 World Finals host an SQ Extreme class. In this class any vehicle that does not meet the above criteria will be able to compete. This class will use the current advanced score sheet. Vehicles that utilize non automotive seats (barcalounger) or utilize non-installed audio components (head phones) will not be allowed to compete in any class at any USACI.

This ruling will apply until such time as this board can re-write and clarify the existing USACI rules to properly categorize these new vehicle design developments.





Ralph Randall

Presented on behalf of the USACI Rules and Ethics Board.

Awesome, we have at least two people for my earlier suggestion,
thanks for your open minded-ness Chris....

I love it...why don't you go to the spl forums and tell all the stock vehicles they will be in super modified ...you'll get the same outcome

Chris, I need to pimp our shop car Lexus becuase we are now going to compete against our shop car Civic. SWEEEEETTTTT!!!!!!!!!

Champion wrote:

USACi should come up with a jig, similiar to what is used in the spl lanes with the microphone, or like they used to in the past.... and everyone knows exactly what there limits are when adjusting, re-locating etc,,, there seets.... I agree that a back seat should be in place or you get bumped up..... I havent had a back seat in the buick in 9 years, so I would be part of this group....

Or we could just eliminate the whole mono-seater class entirely and go back to what we have been used too.

Go back to what we were used to?? Yes, of course. Certainly don't come up with things like this 60 days out from Finals.

The question is " Bumped up to what from where??" I'm already stepping up to Advanced.

Just giving you a break, Mark...

Seriously, I don't understand why such a dramatic change to the rules that will effect 95% of competitors out there should be done for a car or two. Yes, the old "gray" area is in question and sure, people have pushed several issues including seat placement for years. It's never been a big deal. I still say, as long as the car/truck has TWO front seats that you can drive with normal, OEM-type steering controls, etc, that have not been moved to the rear by 3 feet....who cares about the back seat? Either way, there IS NO WAY that ANYONE will be able to set a standard on every vehicle at FINALS. Too many different variables. I agree with most of the above mentioned but it comes down to either LEAVE EVERYTHING LIKE IT IS and ADD A SINGLE SEAT CLASS or go with Tim's "as suggested" classification and PREPARE FOR ONE HUGE SQ EXTREME CLASS. At least NO ONE will just be handed a trophy. Kinda reminds me of back in the day.....when you WON Finals and actually beat somebody (instead of 3 or 4 cars in your class).

If a dramatic changes such as suggested does take place before this year's Finals, might as will go ahead and throw SPL (unlimited) back into SQ also. Makes about as much sense.

Todd Crowder
TC Audio
21 World Championships

I will change my post to something constructive. Whatever the decision, I will choose my own personal outcome.

--Joe Wallis

Thank you for the edit.... Tim

This is MY opinion and MINE only. I think for Expert you have the following.
1. RTA
2. Unlimited SPL
3. Alarm
4. Sound
5. Install

As I’ve said to some of ya’ll in conversations and others have been briefed second hand, I need to have a clear and defined standard for too far back or too laid down like Todd was talking about. Remember Terry Buchanan and his Suburban?? He laid the seats down when he competed and I felt like I was either ready to take a nap or watch a drive in movie from the front row.

The standard I’ve been using for years has been I need to be able to touch the steering wheel and that’s worked fine up to this point.

I threw this stuff out there to get some feedback. There needs to be, like Gary mentioned, a clear and defined maximum of seat location that can hopefully cover 90% of the situations you run in to in the lanes. The other 10% the head judge will just have to deal with. A template would be a great thing but I’m not exactly sure how we’d do that. Suggestions??

I DO like Mark’s idea as far as classifications for the different divisions and have been thinking about something like that for the past couple of years. Putting “ringers” in certain divisions just to harvest trophies is a pet peeve of mine. You usually end up with 2 or 3 builders placing cars in certain divisions to beat the other builders and the rest of the class gets caught up in the crossfire. I’ve done it myself so I know the “why’s and the how’s” of this happening.

The stuff I mentioned earlier is NOT in the book but a way I would potentially classify cars AT the show and be able to explain to someone why they were put in the class that they were. David’s Mustang is a prime example and I’ll pick on him a little since he provided reference pictures. Does he gain an acoustical advantage with his set up?? Most likely. Does he gain an installation advantage?? Definitely Is that an intermediate or basic car?? Not a chance in he}} because if everyone thinks back, intermediate is the old Novice class and basic is a class designed for parking lots only. Would I let this car play in advanced consumer?? Most likely. Would it be fair to put Jan and Monte in expert just because their seats move to within inches of their back seat by manufacturer design?? No, but what differentiates Jan and Monte’s car from John Skeeto’s car as far as seat placement when the cars are being judged?? John modded his rails and Jan and Monte didn’t but their seats end up in about the same place at the end of the day. Do nothing…maybe?? Well, what happens when someone gets “creative” and builds a 6” shelf along the back wall, calls that a seat and then proceeds to move the seats all the way back to that “rear seat”?? How is that different than what David has in his Mustang?? What I’m getting at is there has to be clear and defined ways of saying, “this car goes here and that car goes there”.

I would expect some clearer standards on what you can do to play where for the 2010 rules. You never know but there may also be standards as far as speaker placement in the different divisions but I can guarantee if I get my say that there WILL be specifics on seat mods, rear seat deletes, dash rebuilds, etc that will force cars to certain divisions. Nothing radical but we won’t be seeing dash builds and a rear seat delete (except in possibly pick-ups) in the basic division and probably not in intermediate either.

OnYrMark.... non constructive comments/attitudes like that are how things DON'T get changed. I would suggest you edit that post please so we can stay on topic. If not, I can edit it for you.

Sweet car Don!!

jkrob21 wrote:

PerformanceTyler wrote:

I have to put my 2 cents in on this, I have a 1994 Honda Accord with no modification to the seat brackets and anyone who knows me knows I am not a tall person, with the seat in position for me to drive (which is not all the way back) my car would not pass this test. Also look at David's Mustang what sound advantage does his car have with the seat removed? Nothing the way the car is built it takes up almost the same room as a seat. I am already in the expert class I really dont want to be bumped to the one seat class because Japenese people are short.

The Japanese also drive their cars from the right hand side of the car. As do the British and such. Just sayin.

I find it strange that the R&E would conclude that the drivers seat need be on the left hand side of the vehicle for a WORLD FINALS competition.

Again just sayin. I'll shut up now.

True what if I show up to compete with my JDM Civic hatch it is a right hand drive. Not trying to stir up anything but it is an interesting point.

USACI MD wrote:

This is MY opinion and MINE only. I think for Expert you have the following.
1. RTA
2. Unlimited SPL
3. Alarm
4. Sound
5. Install

I am down for this just like the old days,but only if we use Flashdance.

Guys, when you’re brainstorming, put it in this context with you sitting in the lanes.

“So and so has an unfair advantage that cannot be overcome with the way the rest of the class if built and here is why”

Also Don, I agree… we don’t fight NEAR as much as your guys but when we do, it’s not pretty…

Fantastic posts Tim, Mark and Todd. As far as what to do, who knows. I am in favor of anything that allows more cars to compete in SQ. I also understand what Tim is saying about "Ringer" cars that are in classes were they don't belong (yes I know....I have been one of those builders who is guilty of that). I think you can definitely come up with clear guidelines between now and spring break. We could all take some time come up with suggestions and work together as an open minded group of people to better the organizations. I do believe we are on the right track. I really think many of the guys who have sand bagged there cars over the past couple of years have moved up....(Lou, John, The Dr's blue lexus, etc etc). I think it would be only fair to have clearer guidelines to police these lower classes. What Mark said is a great start, and what Gary said is definitely a step in the right direction.

Here is as constructive as I can be right now.

No exceptions period. Either make it definate for everybody, or nobody at all.
Don't say possibly for pickups, because I can make the same argument, they did it to make room for equipment, not because no body sits back there. Round them out in the same group. How bout those who compete with standard cab trucks. Would they by in Extreme if they created a blowthrough in their cab?

How about someone who has a japanese skyline that is right hand drive, or a british mini? Are they subject to the current ruling? Yes I am stirring the pot. Mainly cause the pot needs to be stirred. There needs to be some brainstorming with more than two people at the helm.

I will accept the outcome however it comes about. I will just have to build accordingly. Mike Darville had a great idea, I wouldn't mind going back to the old way of doing things from the 90's. That would be great!

My personal opinion is that this needs to be following the Musketeers frame of thought, All for 1 and 1 for all!

Much better post Joe... I don't mind the pot getting stirred, I just get very annoyed at the "I'm going to take my toys and go elsewhere" attitude being voiced on the forum. We're all trying to make this better, not populate other org's lanes....

My biggest single concern is to have like cars competing against like cars. I don't like to see a car (or a couple of cars) in the intermediate class win the class by 40 points at finals because that negatively affects all of the other competitors below them. It's obvious when that happens that those cars were in the wrong division and I need to give a reason why I'm moving them up at finals. We have guys show up in Basic with the back seats of trucks used for equipment (see John Roberts’ pics) and they don’t look anything like David’s Mustang. Compare two vehicles like that and tell me who you think is going to win in intermediate. Why bump a beginner in a truck with Ozite and Pyramid out of Basic just because someone decided to remove the entire back seat out of a Mustang, fill it full of high dollar equipment and then try to compete in Basic. There has to be standards and reasons to move cars. There were a couple of custom dash cars in the Intermediate class last year that skirted the “well, there isn’t a rule that says you can’t do this in Intermediate” that probably should have been advanced but they were right, there wasn’t anything that said they couldn’t be in intermediate and the “Ralph said” that I had to follow was “don’t move anyone at finals”.

I could always resurrect the “unfair advantage” clause that a head judge has and I haven’t used in forever to move cars but that is going to pi$$ off some people because it always did in the past…

Something that would really help to get ringers to step up (in addition to any specific classification rules) would be to offer significant incentives via bigger awards and prizes for the more advanced classes.

Basic classes get little tiny trophies. Intermediate classes get good sized trophies. Advanced classes get good trophies, and prizes donated by manufacturers and sponsors. Experts get something a little better than that. The center seat class gets little tiny trophies (No challenge = little trophy )

To make it work, it needs to be set up so that 5th place in the more advanced division is at least equivalent to the first place award in the lower division. If the awards in the two divisions are too close in perceived recognition and value, there won't be enough incentive to get them to step up.

Another thing that might help is peer pressure from other competitors, judges, etc. If it is an obvious trophy hunter, then other competitors, judges, officials, etc, need to talk to the competitor and/or builder, and keep some pressure on to get them to step up. Don't use negative pressure (at least not at first). Just work on them to convince them that they can step up, and be competitive in a higher class. When enough people get to them, maybe they'll take it to heart, and move up.

It will be very difficult to absolutely police trophy hunting ringers out of a class where they are determined to be in, just because they want that first place trophy. But make the trophy small enough, and reduce the recognition they receive, and throw in some peer pressure from other competitors and judges, and they might move.

It's not competition when a $25,000 installation is competing in the Basic , or even in the Intermediate classes. It's simply a lame way of buying a first place trophy.

Offer incentives to step up, in addition to the rules, and the ringer situation will get a lot better.


Mark Eldridge

This is very interesting thread. I have read every post. There are some very valid points. I would only ask that what ever rule you enforce. Make no exceptions for anyone. I understand that anytime there is a rule change it will upset people but you cant be everything to everybody.

Make the rule, set the standards, then enforce it! all should be well then or least close to well.

Just for my own clarification can someone explain to me how not having a backseat would give an you and andvantage over someone who does? This rule not directly effect me because I dont own 2 door cars (3kids will rule that out) But if I am helping or building a car for someone else I need to understand why I cant use the back seat for an amp rack.

I hope that the rule book is clearly defined for each class in 2010 all the does and donts need to be stated lets get rid of the grey areas. Now everyone get back to work.

TeamCobra1 wrote:

I love it...why don't you go to the spl forums and tell all the stock vehicles they will be in super modified ...you'll get the same outcome

So let me see if I get this...

We can move the seat OEM brackets to get better sound
We can remove the rear seats and sit in the back or near it to get better sound
We can put the seats side by side in the middle of the car to get better sound


BUT....

Don't put one seat in the middle of the car to get better sound because this makes the car shound better than the rest?

Double Standard?

hmmmmmm.... Sounds a little like it.

PS. Not picking on Mickey, Just happened to grab his post.

Champion wrote:

WOW, alot of very interesting views and reads here....
I personally feel that USACi's ruling is on parr to what we need. There has been way to much freedom given, over the years....
These are areas that havent been given enough attention over the years.... USACi should come up with a jig, similiar to what is used in the spl lanes with the microphone, or like they used to in the past.... and everyone knows exactly what there limits are when adjusting, re-locating etc,,, there seets.... I agree that a back seat should be in place or you get bumped up..... I havent had a back seat in the buick in 9 years, so I would be part of this group....

Or we could just eliminate the whole mono-seater class entirely and go back to what we have been used too.

See, someone gets it!

foosman 100 wrote:

Champion wrote:

USACi should come up with a jig, similiar to what is used in the spl lanes with the microphone, or like they used to in the past.... and everyone knows exactly what there limits are when adjusting, re-locating etc,,, there seets.... I agree that a back seat should be in place or you get bumped up..... I havent had a back seat in the buick in 9 years, so I would be part of this group....

Or we could just eliminate the whole mono-seater class entirely and go back to what we have been used too.

Go back to what we were used to?? Yes, of course. Certainly don't come up with things like this 60 days out from Finals.

The question is " Bumped up to what from where??" I'm already stepping up to Advanced.

The issue arose 60 days from finals. Every one demanded a responce 60 days from finals. Now seems it was not such a great idea?

Now that I stirred the pot some myself (felt good , I think it is very close to finals and expecting people to make serious mods at this point is unrealistic.

The ruling will stay as it is.

We will measure from the seat back to the steering wheel to get a distance. This will be an AVERAGE and EVERYONE will be held to the same standard. Steering wheel must be in OEM location. Moving the wheel is extreme and will be classified as such.

Back seats irrelevant for this year.

Changes will come for 2010 though they are not decided yet.

Have a nice day.

USACI wrote:

TeamCobra1 wrote:

I love it...why don't you go to the spl forums and tell all the stock vehicles they will be in super modified ...you'll get the same outcome

So let me see if I get this...

We can move the seat OEM brackets to get better sound
We can remove the rear seats and sit in the back or near it to get better sound
We can put the seats side by side in the middle of the car to get better sound


BUT....

Don't put one seat in the middle of the car to get better sound because this makes the car shound better than the rest?

Double Standard?

hmmmmmm.... Sounds a little like it.

PS. Not picking on Mickey, Just happened to grab his post.

its not a double standard at all...there is a huge difference between seating 2 people in the center of the car and moving them back a few inches....#1 there are 2 people scoring the car...#2 one judge sitting next to another blocks some of the information coming from the other side of the car so it has many different challenges...#3 neither person is dead center so you could both have a different listening experience ...

for the record my car has always used the factory seating locations and has done fine ...the single seat is the only thing I have a problem with

I agree with 98% of what had been stated. I would only have an issue with the rule of must have a backseat if vehicle came with one.

Example: I have been working on a '99 Prelude I own for about 2 years the front seats moved back for a 6' foot person set against the rear seats. Also for me to fit all the audio equipment I would need to remove the rear seat as the trunk barely has enough room to fit 2 golf bags and a gym bag.

This car will also have a rebuilt dash.

I agree that once you go to this level ^^^ you should not be allowed to compete in anything below advanced.

I also agree that its 1 rule for all. If the single cab trucks can make everything fit, it can be done in a extended cab or crew cab truck. Its takes some creativity but I have done it in my current crew cab.

I feel that if the ruling is made that has been discussed on back seats it will push some new comers not to even compete.

I like the idea that the seat rail mounting must remain installed in the OEM locations with no modifications or extensions.

USACI wrote:

Now that I stirred the pot some myself (felt good , I think it is very close to finals and expecting people to make serious mods at this point is unrealistic.

The ruling will stay as it is.

We will measure from the seat back to the steering wheel to get a distance. This will be an AVERAGE and EVERYONE will be held to the same standard. Steering wheel must be in OEM location. Moving the wheel is extreme and will be classified as such.

Back seats irrelevant for this year.

Changes will come for 2010 though they are not decided yet.

Have a nice day.

Now that makes sense!!!!

Hey Mark, I am cool with the little award....heck, make it a medallion on a necklace so I can hang it from my Expert World Title from last year. LOL

You didnt just go there did ya?

why not. I keep hearing how I should get a small trophy for my efforts. LOL. Its all in good fun right?

I am the great Cornholio.....Are you threatening me! I am from Lake Titichacha! I need TP.....TP for my bunghole!

I for one want to thank Ralph and Tim for all their time and consideration in this matter (I'm flattered you would use my car as an example, Tim, that is why I posted the pics for those not familiar with it) and feel we are well on the way to having some concrete rules in place that everyone can build and abide by.
I also look forward to the discussion at Finals so everyone can share their views and input.
Just for clarification, my Mustang will never compete in anything less than Advanced, Pro or consumer is yet to be determined.