Rules and Ethics Decision 08/18/2009

08/18/2009

Sq Classes Rules and Ethics decision.


For many years sound quality has been judged in a vehicle by one or two judges. As a rule this is done from the drivers seat primarily and then the drivers and passengers seats in the case of two judges. As vehicle building has improved the modifications to the vehicle have continued to push the envelope and force changes in the judging rules.

The recent introduction of a center seat vehicle has brought to the forefront just how creative competitiors are becoming with their vehicles. Along with this creativity comes new challenges for the judging staff. In the case of center drive and/or rear seat vehicles we are forced to review what makes an automobile and automobile and how to define the same without hindering creativiy and workmanship.

Current model US automobiles come with two seats, one for the drive and one for the passenger. The driver is always located left of center and the passenger right of center. Some vehicles come without rear seats but none come without front seats. As such we must make the following determination:



In USACI Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, and Expert classes all vehicles must have a drivers and passengers seat. The drivers seat must keep the driver and all parts of his/her person to the left of the vehicle center line. If the driver and passenger cannot sit in the vehicle without intruding on one another then the vehicle will not qualify as a two seat vehicle. All drivers and passenger seats must be “Front Seats” and may not be moved to the rear so far as to eliminate the possibility of a rear passenger in vehicles that come with rear passenger seats. Interpretation and application of this rule will be at the discretion of the head Sq judge at any given event.



Furthermore, USACI will at the 2009 World Finals host an SQ Extreme class. In this class any vehicle that does not meet the above criteria will be able to compete. This class will use the current advanced score sheet. Vehicles that utilize non automotive seats (barcalounger) or utilize non-installed audio components (head phones) will not be allowed to compete in any class at any USACI.

This ruling will apply until such time as this board can re-write and clarify the existing USACI rules to properly categorize these new vehicle design developments.





Ralph Randall

Presented on behalf of the USACI Rules and Ethics Board.

Thank You!

That's all we've been asking for; a determination one way or another.

Personally, I think this is a good decision.

So much for the headphone jacks we were all installing...

Mark Eldridge

Thank you USACI for getting on this and making a decision for everyone. We are looking forward to seeing you guys in Tulsa.

Which ruling applies to the "q "classes?

Ohhhhhhhhhh lawd...... Good question Monty i would assume that you have to have 2 seats and it would fall with everything under expert and extreme ... Like the advanced and intermediate and basic kinda thing.......

I hope so, I am competing ProQ next season...

Q has been a 2 judge/2 seat class so the rules outlined above would apply to Q as well.

After reading this rule a little more and having some discussion with Ralph, I feel like there needs to be a little more clarification.

For ease of classification, here are the standards I am going to use at finals this year.

1: If the car came factory with a back seat, then the back seat needs to be in the vehicle. If the back seat isn't in the vehicle, you will be moved to the Extreme SQ class.

2: The car will be judged as if a back seat passenger were present during judging. This means that there will need to be space between the bottom of the ear seat and the back of the front seat. I'm thinking that it needs to be either the width of my clipboard or the length of my clipboard (either approx 7" or 12"). Once the seat is set in position, that is the position that the vehicle will be judged in. This measurement may have to be modified between now and finals so if YOUR car doesn't pass this projected test, I need to know RIGHT NOW and you need to bring a really good argument as to why your vehicle will be at an extreme disadvantage if this measurement is used. If you need help writing a really good argument for or against something, see Mark, he can help... (Sorry Mark, I had to throw that in there after the multiple volumes of information I got from you last week...)

will you be using this standard in the expert class as well?

11" is too much for some sports cars that were built with back seats.some were for looks only cause you can't even fit a euthiopian kid (sorry ,i was going to say mexican but my are as big as i.lol). take a round # 6".

So if I am reading this right......that means everyone in the expert division.....3 cars from the adv pro division, and a few cars from consumer advanced are now in the same class with me?

Just to let you guys know....on any two door sports car (Nissan GTR, Infinity G35 coupe, Ford Mustang, Chevy camaro, etc etc etc) the front seat will touch the rear seat with any person who is of normal height. That is stock, without any modifications.

wow....this ought to be a lot of fun!

[quote="txcomp"]After reading this rule a little more and having some discussion with Ralph, I feel like there needs to be a little more clarification.

For ease of classification, here are the standards I am going to use at finals this year.

1: If the car came factory with a back seat, then the back seat needs to be in the vehicle. If the back seat isn't in the vehicle, you will be moved to the Extreme SQ class.

quote]

So then my truck would have been thrown in Extreme my first year out had these rules been in place? Remeber it was removed for the subwoofer enclosure. As many extended cab and four door trucks out there that wouldn't stand a chance in Extreme.


Like Jimbo, I don't have a dog in this hunt. My truck meets the criteria so far for remaining in my present class. Just seems a bit harsh. I hope we can find an easier way to classify cars with a rear seat removed.

im not even going to comment because I know it will piss people off...cheezeandrice

so tim....is this the standard you r going to use or is this the rules

this is a great solution....instead of running off 3 or 4 experts now you run off about 10 amateurs and pros

TeamCobra1 wrote:

this is a great solution....instead of running off 3 or 4 experts now you run off about 10 amateurs and pros

Tim stated that he was using this standard to help classify cars unless a good argument was given to go in a different direction.

Like I said, My truck is fine with the direction it's going for now. I just don't think it's very fair for a lot of other folks who may or may not have the OEM back seat in there or may be driving one of the cars Chris mentioned where the front seat can meet the back seat right from the factory.

Not tryin to stir the pot. Just sayin.

I hope we can figure this out too. It doesnt make sense for any of my teammates

My car has a rear seat delete situation with a huge fiberglass redesign of the hatch area. I am surprised at this, but am going to let it all shake out b4 losing it.
I'm sure cooler heads will prevail and see that this eliminates most, if not all, the top cars from intermediate on up. 2 seats with driveability I understand, but I can't see why someone must have rear seats.

WOW???? I like many have kept my mouth shut on this and many other "hot" subjects but careful thought needs to be put into this supposed "classification" on rear seats. As stated before, the front seat in a Camaro touches the rear seat at a normal driving position. I know because I have one. I can move the seat a little forward for my son to ride in the rear but it puts me on the dash. Definitely would not want to drive very far like that and I am just an average 6 footer. And what about the extended cab trucks with rear seats removed for subboxes? even without any front seat modification? Doesn't make to much sense.

I would think there should be some sort of classification for SQ cars that intentionally relocate the front seats back for sound purposes. I agree that if the "car" had a rear seat originally then rear passengers should still be able to sit in the car. I see where it makes no difference if the front seats are slightly extended DURING SQ JUDGING but can STILL return an acceptable location allowing rear passengers to actually USE the rear seat.

Furthermore....Everybody understands what this means for most folks with any seat modifications. But that has to be more research made and a ruling of some sort on how each type of vehicle will classify. What about a small compact car with the rear seat removed for audio gear and NO FRONT SEAT MODIFICATION AT ALL?
Or, again, a pickup truck? There has to be a line drawn between vehicle with obvious INTENT to manipulate SQ for obvious reasons by deleting the rear seats for either people or gear???

It's ALL just getting a little too complicated to even worry with IMO. I have competed USACi since 1990 and have ALWAYS been a big supporter. I have been thru the ups and downs. Believe me and oh yes, I've had the rules changed for me too. No benefit of course, just your usual haters who want something changed in their favor. You can either agree with the rules changes or go somewhere else. I just think that the "seats" issue requires a lot more thought of how this will effect most competitiors as to KEEP them in the organization. I have more in a min...

Todd Crowder
TC Audio
21 World Championships

This is what I am talking about. Rear seats were eliminated as they were not practical in a Mustang to begin with.

When u get down it....IMO....it should NOT matter if the car has rear seats or not. If you want to take them out for audio gear, etc. then FINE. The problem is when you do this...IT comes down to what you do with the front seats and how much is a "gray" area in the rulebook. Again, It should NOT make any difference on the rear seat in or out of the car AS LONG AS you can still drive the car from the normal left position (steering wheel, gas, brake, etc). Big deal if the seats "slides" back for SQ testing. Just check to make sure the seat returns to a normal street-legal "driveable" position. This would eliminate 90% of the forementioned issues. There is NO way to classify some sort of "said length" between the front and rear seats as a standard on EVERY CAR AT FINALS.

More complicated than it has to be. You could even make a rule to allow front seat track/location modification ONLY IF USING OEM MOUNTING LOCATIONS. But the removal of the rear seat is definitely getting more complicated. Again, my cars will compete either way. Whatever the ruling...it should be a 2010 item in next year's rulebook. Not fair for several competitors who already have invested time and money on a vehicle that is already built. If there ends up being some dramatic change, competitors will then have time to modify there cars for next season or find another place to compete. Think about it.

As I stated earlier on. I had the rear seat removed to incorporate a subwoofer enclosure and amp rack. Mine was not as nice looking as other trucks and cars but it would function as a seat. This was my first year and I didn't even work for the industry yet. I was a consumer in BASIC.

I have to put my 2 cents in on this, I have a 1994 Honda Accord with no modification to the seat brackets and anyone who knows me knows I am not a tall person, with the seat in position for me to drive (which is not all the way back) my car would not pass this test. Also look at David's Mustang what sound advantage does his car have with the seat removed? Nothing the way the car is built it takes up almost the same room as a seat. I am already in the expert class I really dont want to be bumped to the one seat class because Japenese people are short.

I may turn over the extended post responsibilities to Todd...

Not trying to throw Napalm on the fire, but if the front to rear seat spacing is an issue, how about the seat back angle? We have all seen competitors with the seat back leaned so far back that the listeners feel like they're lying down in the car, and can barely see out the windows.

How about this for splitting up front seat location modifications, and removal of rear seats...

Basic division cars, whether they are consumer or pro, can not modify or remove the back seat. All Intermediate and Advanced cars can have the back seat removed and/or modified.

Basic and Intermediate cars, consumer or pro, can not have the front seat positions modified from OEM specs. If the factory seating system allows the front seat to touch the back seat, so be it. But the factory front seat positions can not be modified.

If the seat positions, tracks, mounting locations, etc are modified, the car must compete in the Advanced division. (Maybe at Finals this year, if an Intermediate car has modified seat rails, then the seats can be set to where the factory locations would be to finish out the 2009 season. Then next year, the "no modifications" rule can apply.)

We have seen Advanced Consumer and Pro cars with relocated seats for years. I personally do not think this is a problem, as long as the seat can move to a location where the factory controls can be used to drive the car. If the controls (pedals and steering) are substantially modified to move them to a different location to match a moved seating position (and not simply to upgrade the pedals or steering wheel), then maybe the car should be classified Expert. This ruling would need to be made by the R & E Committee to determine if a particular vehicle should be in the Expert class.

Personally, I don't care if Expert class cars have the front seats removed, and the listeners sit in the back seats, as long as there are two side-by-side seating positions. Every car I have ever heard with the seats located that far to the back has sounded awful, and it's for many acoustical reasons. Reflections and surfaces very near the listeners, the relationship between the speaker spacing and the distance from them, and a number of other factors work against them, and I'll put my car up against any back seat driver vehicle. (If any competitors are thinking about moving the seats that far back to improve SQ, just don't do it. It won't work... )

The Expert class is the place for truly Extreme SQ vehicles, where side-by-side seating positions are in play. Let the Experts do what ever they want to do, as long as there are two side-by-side seating positions for the listeners.

The class USACi created called the Extreme SQ class could be simply for cars with the listening positions on the centerline of the vehicle, with symmetrical speaker placement on both sides. That's really the only thing that has changed from what we have been doing for many years.

I would say don't over complicate it. Make the progression of modifications allowable concurrent with the Basic, Intermediate, Advanced Divisions. Then break it down a little further with the Consumer, Pro, and Expert classes. I think that's enough for all traditional seating arrangement vehicles.

Center seat vehicles just go in the center seat class.

By the way, my car originally had only one seat... I hope that doesn't throw everything into a tail spin...


Mark Eldridge

WOW, alot of very interesting views and reads here....
I personally feel that USACi's ruling is on parr to what we need. There has been way to much freedom given, over the years....
These are areas that havent been given enough attention over the years.... USACi should come up with a jig, similiar to what is used in the spl lanes with the microphone, or like they used to in the past.... and everyone knows exactly what there limits are when adjusting, re-locating etc,,, there seets.... I agree that a back seat should be in place or you get bumped up..... I havent had a back seat in the buick in 9 years, so I would be part of this group....

Or we could just eliminate the whole mono-seater class entirely and go back to what we have been used too.

of course

OF COURSE!