SQ at SCRAPIN= Disappointment...

First topic message reminder :

I normally try to keep my mouth shut but sometimes things just need to be put out in the open. We just returned from Scrapin' the Coast in Biloxi today. While the show itself, which is mainly a huge car/truck show, was pretty awesome, the stereo competition was pathetic. I don't have a final car show entry total yet but I would assume they had well over 1500 vehicles at a minimum. Over 8000 spectators through the gate on Saturday alone. They sold ALL 2400 event tshirts, too (at $20 ea.).

I took my Camaro and had a customer & friend (Dustin Daigle) from New Orleans also bring his car (which was his FIRST show with NEW build this year). Ray from Linear/Blues had 5 guys competing including himself (one of which was ALSO a NEW true FIRST-time sq guy). An old friend and long time USACi supporter, Ralph Leake, was also there with a car entered (he also had a few in SPL). James Halter, also a good friend, was also there but did not compete but made the trip to demo some of his subs (there was 1 entry from TX). All of which bringing the TOTAL SQ "turnout" to NINE VEHICLES. SPL entries were over 150 according to the guys running the show (which btw were two- one on meter & one on mic).

I was made aware early Saturday morning that there was NOT a "certified SQ" judge even at the event. Now after a little confusion I was notified that one of the guys running SPL would be the SQ judge (sound & install). This was an apparent major problem with several at the show, not because of former "team affiliations" and a now severed relationship, but rather that the guy was NOT really an SQ judge nor had any background of ever having judged SQ at any event before. Please understand that this is in NO way a personal attack to any of those parties involved. I am simply stating the record.

In an attempt to rectify the problem, Ray had called Ralph and explained he situation. We BOTH ended up speaking with Ralph and I agreed to work with Ray and that if needed we would both judge any vehicles that either of us had in the same class or wherever there would have been a conflict. As it all worked out, being ONLY 9 SQ competitors total, NO two were in the same class, so everyone WON by default. No judging or contraversy involved in the final outcome (getting there- a different story).

Now with my thoughts on this event and basically ALL the rest for that matter...
1. No reason why MORE SQ competitors could not have SHOWED up for this event! There were show trucks from all over the country there (Maryland & Arizona I know for a fact).
2. SPL guys showed up by the tons- Bigger than Finals.
3. Huge venue, well organized car/truck show judging.
4. Well promoted event, it's 10th Anniversary this year!
5. Plenty of hotels, restaurants, and entertainment close-by- an added bonus.
6. Piss-poor 12v manufacturer support, although props to Kinetik, Memphis, MTX, Polk Audio, and whoever I forgot.

Every single SQ person (myself & the other 8 folks), all spent hard earned money, took off work, etc to get to this show and have our cars JUDGED! Not buy a trophy & points which is exactly what happened. Now I have been doing this for a long time and realize that things like this happen sometimes but frankly I am quite tired of it. I don't have to even have points for Finals (Xtreme class) but I try to show my support for this and other organizations whenever and however I can but enough is enough. Event promotors take NO priority in SOUND QUALITY hardly ever and this show is only further proof of the continued decline of SQ. This is not aimed solely at Greg, who hosts Scrapin, either. But it costs the same $50 to enter SPL as it does SQ. And if you can have/plan a successful event for 10 years that people enjoy and continue to return to from all over the country, CAN'T you find at least ONE well-known, proven, certified, SOUND guy, to judge a handful of cars????

I have been gone for 5 days attending this event, spent over $2000, and didn't work for 3 days myself at my shop only to return with a $50 (nice) gold metal 1st place cup for a car I am very proud of that wasn't even judged. Btw, I had NO MANUFACTURER support or monetary reimburement either. Zero. I have thought for the last 450 miles about why exactly I do what I do travelling to these shows. It is to compete. It is to help fellow competitors and help get new interest in the sport.

I simply refuse to continue to support something that does NOTHING for me and apparently is not, has not, and will not ever be a priority again. This post is only saying what the other 95% of ALL OF YOU HARD CORE SOUND GUYS are thinking anyway. I have not made my decision on Finals in Indy yet either but I can say that it is NOT looking good. I may stay at home this year, save $$$ and grief bigtime. Almost certain I will not go unless something really changes and I am guaranteed of top notch quality sound judges. I have nothing to prove and SPL will go right on along, without me being there. So there ya go- someone can go get an "easy" one.

Enough is enough.

When I initially posted I was seriously asking what Gregs reasoning was and to see what was up. Now I'm simply aggravated that I keep reading "why all these ugly unfinished junkyard cars don't deserve the focus"


If it was my opinion. I'd almost say SQ must pre register and require XX amount of entry or would not be available. Just my thoughts since turn out is thin.

Dang I guess my comments got under some skin. Alan you are taking this way too personally.Yes there are some that only want to do hairtricks and that is fine I build cars like that I dont have a problem with that. SQ at Scrapin used to be bigger than this year I will agree but look at the Conway show most of the SPL competitors competed in an SQ class also because the show director and the judges helped to educate the competitors in attendance. Why can this not be the norm? It used to be but like what was said earlier most directors dont even know the rules for the organization they are representing except were to place the mic for testing. I made the comment because someone with me at the show commented on what the vehicles looked like not all of them. JPs Tahoe looks like hammered Dung Pile but it does draw a crowd because it gets loud. The argument again is not why SPL gets more focus just why it gets 100% taken care of versus what we as SQ guys get.

TeamTCA wrote:

Well true true. If SQ was respected enough and ran properly maybe there would be more than "5" of us to compete. Exactly my whole point. Maybe I will just bring my S10 back out SPL only this time so at least I have someone to compete against. Whole lot less grief.

there ya go!

TeamTCA wrote:

I normally try to keep my mouth shut but sometimes things just need to be put out in the open. We just returned from Scrapin' the Coast in Biloxi today. While the show itself, which is mainly a huge car/truck show, was pretty awesome, the stereo competition was pathetic. I don't have a final car show entry total yet but I would assume they had well over 1500 vehicles at a minimum. Over 8000 spectators through the gate on Saturday alone. They sold ALL 2400 event tshirts, too (at $20 ea.).

I took my Camaro and had a customer & friend (Dustin Daigle) from New Orleans also bring his car (which was his FIRST show with NEW build this year). Ray from Linear/Blues had 5 guys competing including himself (one of which was ALSO a NEW true FIRST-time sq guy). An old friend and long time USACi supporter, Ralph Leake, was also there with a car entered (he also had a few in SPL). James Halter, also a good friend, was also there but did not compete but made the trip to demo some of his subs (there was 1 entry from TX). All of which bringing the TOTAL SQ "turnout" to NINE VEHICLES. SPL entries were over 150 according to the guys running the show (which btw were two- one on meter & one on mic).

I was made aware early Saturday morning that there was NOT a "certified SQ" judge even at the event. Now after a little confusion I was notified that one of the guys running SPL would be the SQ judge (sound & install). This was an apparent major problem with several at the show, not because of former "team affiliations" and a now severed relationship, but rather that the guy was NOT really an SQ judge nor had any background of ever having judged SQ at any event before. Please understand that this is in NO way a personal attack to any of those parties involved. I am simply stating the record.

In an attempt to rectify the problem, Ray had called Ralph and explained he situation. We BOTH ended up speaking with Ralph and I agreed to work with Ray and that if needed we would both judge any vehicles that either of us had in the same class or wherever there would have been a conflict. As it all worked out, being ONLY 9 SQ competitors total, NO two were in the same class, so everyone WON by default. No judging or contraversy involved in the final outcome (getting there- a different story).

Now with my thoughts on this event and basically ALL the rest for that matter...
1. No reason why MORE SQ competitors could not have SHOWED up for this event! There were show trucks from all over the country there (Maryland & Arizona I know for a fact).
2. SPL guys showed up by the tons- Bigger than Finals.
3. Huge venue, well organized car/truck show judging.
4. Well promoted event, it's 10th Anniversary this year!
5. Plenty of hotels, restaurants, and entertainment close-by- an added bonus.
6. Piss-poor 12v manufacturer support, although props to Kinetik, Memphis, MTX, Polk Audio, and whoever I forgot.

Every single SQ person (myself & the other 8 folks), all spent hard earned money, took off work, etc to get to this show and have our cars JUDGED! Not buy a trophy & points which is exactly what happened. Now I have been doing this for a long time and realize that things like this happen sometimes but frankly I am quite tired of it. I don't have to even have points for Finals (Xtreme class) but I try to show my support for this and other organizations whenever and however I can but enough is enough. Event promotors take NO priority in SOUND QUALITY hardly ever and this show is only further proof of the continued decline of SQ. This is not aimed solely at Greg, who hosts Scrapin, either. But it costs the same $50 to enter SPL as it does SQ. And if you can have/plan a successful event for 10 years that people enjoy and continue to return to from all over the country, CAN'T you find at least ONE well-known, proven, certified, SOUND guy, to judge a handful of cars????

I have been gone for 5 days attending this event, spent over $2000, and didn't work for 3 days myself at my shop only to return with a $50 (nice) gold metal 1st place cup for a car I am very proud of that wasn't even judged. Btw, I had NO MANUFACTURER support or monetary reimburement either. Zero. I have thought for the last 450 miles about why exactly I do what I do travelling to these shows. It is to compete. It is to help fellow competitors and help get new interest in the sport.

I simply refuse to continue to support something that does NOTHING for me and apparently is not, has not, and will not ever be a priority again. This post is only saying what the other 95% of ALL OF YOU HARD CORE SOUND GUYS are thinking anyway. I have not made my decision on Finals in Indy yet either but I can say that it is NOT looking good. I may stay at home this year, save $$$ and grief bigtime. Almost certain I will not go unless something really changes and I am guaranteed of top notch quality sound judges. I have nothing to prove and SPL will go right on along, without me being there. So there ya go- someone can go get an "easy" one.

Enough is enough.

todd you should have saved your money and came to heatwave you will have good sq judges there trust me.

PerformanceTyler wrote:

Dang I guess my comments got under some skin. Alan you are taking this way too personally.Yes there are some that only want to do hairtricks and that is fine I build cars like that I dont have a problem with that. SQ at Scrapin used to be bigger than this year I will agree but look at the Conway show most of the SPL competitors competed in an SQ class also because the show director and the judges helped to educate the competitors in attendance. Why can this not be the norm? It used to be but like what was said earlier most directors dont even know the rules for the organization they are representing except were to place the mic for testing. I made the comment because someone with me at the show commented on what the vehicles looked like not all of them. JPs Tahoe looks like hammered Dung Pile but it does draw a crowd because it gets loud. The argument again is not why SPL gets more focus just why it gets 100% taken care of versus what we as SQ guys get.

fine and true. But no reason to bag on spl competitors and their cars.

I was at a show about a month and a half ago where there was no SQ judge. I was the only SQ guy there so it didn;t matter but was really irritating to know that someone was sent who cannot do SQ. What if more SQ guys had showed up. Who would have judged the cars then? It is rediculous! I do however appreciate the judge at that show being honest and telling me he doesn't know how to judge SQ.

But, I agree with everyone else, SQ takes the backseat for sure here.

hey Alan you know what they say pretty ant loud and if y'all think it is so easy to build a spl car try it some time. I have spent a year and a half trying to get to 160 and still be able to play music because I drive my truck every day and like to play my music.

John has done a pretty good job at making his SQ trunk get loud...

Sweet. He should run trunk at finals. They'll have judges there

The point is I don't think anyone was trying to pick a fight or piss off any SPL guys. You spend a lot of money just as we do but when it comes to the shows it seems more logical for us to send in a payment for a few 3x shows and not leave our house and show up at finals. If you traveled 8hrs to a show and there was no SPL meter there you would be pissed im sure.

Yepp. But I wouldn't ramble on about how shitty the sq cars are and ask why they get the attention of usaci.

Ok, been reading and going to comment. I'm not one to say anything most of the time, but here is my opinion plain and simple, and please keep in mind that I run(try to run) both SPL and SQ.
I love SQ, and will always run it until it just doesnt exist anymore, and evne when it is gone, I'll still bring it out just because you don't see anything like it much anymore.
I feel the reason that SQ is dying is due to the org just not taking it seriously during the season. I got nothing but good things to say about Tim and the way he runs finals.
I put on thousands of miles, pay entry fees, just to get the points and not be judged. Been that way for a while, and the comments that I get from the new guys is 'why waste my time', and that is exactly what happened. I got into SPL for the same reason, loved competing, but you no matter what you compete in, there will be a decline in support and competitors if they are not taken seriously. You can see this with SPL also. I don't know how many times Ive read about someone makeing up a rule, or enforcing one that is BS just to have it flare up on here and piss everyone off. I just got done reading something about CRX's having to have stock panels to run stock? That is a diffeernt story, but with the same story line, how many SPL guys have given up due to lack of rule enforcement. All numbers have declined and from what I see, from the same reasons.
But what would happen if there was not a meter at a show??? Now try this at multiple shows for a couple of years. Doubt there'd be much left for competitors. I know that I would not be in SPL anymore.
bottom line, I agree with Todd, if SQ is offered, be sure that there will be a judge there. Can't speak for others, but I sure wouldn't mind even if we had to preregister.

"pretty ant loud" Someone should go back and look at the old SPL vehicles and tell Todd that his S-10 wasnt loud or Mark Fukuda's blazer. Look this has turned into something else from what it originally was meant to bring to light. I personally pissed Alan off I guess by my comments on the state of some not all SPL cars. He also brought up jps tahoe so my question would be what number did he put up at the show? I never saw him get in line to compete but Im an SQ idiot so I could be wrong. And on another note why are we called SQ and SPL competitors? When I got into this in the early 90s we were just called soundoff competitors. So again I apologize to Alan for my comments earlier I will never again express what a potential soundoff competitor asked because I might make someone mad.

PerformanceTyler wrote:

I will never again express what a potential soundoff competitor asked because I might make someone mad.

Haha...Now thats funny.

basher8621 wrote:

PerformanceTyler wrote:

I will never again express what a potential soundoff competitor asked because I might make someone mad.

Haha...Now thats funny.

That will not be easy ...we have thick skin!

Alright.
Hat on backwards.
On box.
Spl as you know it came from outlaw spl and a whole lot of Mike's work back in the day before things went south. Outlaw spl came from sq. sq started this. Out of freaking respect it should continue. I've said over and over again that sq needs to be offered at 3x point and up to solve the problem. Oh well. Guess that isn't right either. It is either on the event coordinator or USAC to provide the sq judge. Fact. This whole bs is either Greg or Ralph's fault. Plain and simple. You want to offer sq you have to have a proper judge or judging staff. Charge more to sq competitors to fund the judging staff. It's ROI...u put a quality judge in/on a sq car, the competitor will be happy. If sq truly has become something that is only taking entry fees and handing out trophies. I'll go drag race instead.

what exactly do you mean by "Hat on backwards" that could be kind of offensive. and your loud and our loud might be two different things i know Tod still has the s10 yes it looks nice I have sat in it. i think he should bring it back and try to compete with us.

What is funny about this is the entire thing was directed at USACi and NOT the SPL competitors.

Tj...don't be stupid. That chip on your shoulder doesn't balance well. This post goes back On topic right now or I will edit out the bs.

1 i am not stupid or being stupid. and i don't have a chip on my shoulder

From what others have said in this post and from what I know personally.... this is all about business. Meaning you cater to what pays the bills. If common attendence for SQ is 9 or less people there not gonna focus or stress having a SQ judge. They may have had one on Standby. But SPL is where the money is at in this dying sport. There is really no such thing as sponsorship anymore and companies make you pay your own way. Spl is most certainly Rocket Science! But the act of putting a meter in a car with a cutout Jig isn't. Hitting a button to start a count down isn't either and it only takes 30 seconds. $5-$15 reruns are money in the bank. If you want to have more focus on SQ get more people to petition and participate. Make it worth while for the Org's make them feel like there missing out on money!

jsketoe wrote:

Alright.
Hat on backwards.
On box.
Spl as you know it came from outlaw spl and a whole lot of Mike's work back in the day before things went south. Outlaw spl came from sq. sq started this. Out of freaking respect it should continue. I've said over and over again that sq needs to be offered at 3x point and up to solve the problem. Oh well. Guess that isn't right either. It is either on the event coordinator or USAC to provide the sq judge. Fact. This whole bs is either Greg or Ralph's fault. Plain and simple. You want to offer sq you have to have a proper judge or judging staff. Charge more to sq competitors to fund the judging staff. It's ROI...u put a quality judge in/on a sq car, the competitor will be happy. If sq truly has become something that is only taking entry fees and handing out trophies. I'll go drag race instead.

I completely understand this. My first show I ever competed in was in 1995. Flashdance was the track used to record your spl score. You also had to do a SQ judging, and RTA in order to achieve your overall score. I miss those days, local shows had well over 75 competitors. That is what got me hooked on being a competitor. I wish we could go back to basics of all this mess. A few years ago my wife and I went down to Pate's shop for the SQ Judges training, which was very informative. I have informed the local directors that we both went and if they needed SQ judges we would be more than happy to come and judge for them. I have yet to receive a call. I have been trying to get some local guys to try SQ, but no luck yet.

jsketoe wrote:

Tj...don't be stupid. That chip on your shoulder doesn't balance well. This post goes back On topic right now or I will edit out the bs.

The thread got off subject because people chose to down talk what spl guys "do" our vehicles etc .. as if we are a lower class citizen and omg these guys have a judge but we don't. Took that as offensive. That's it. Other than that I don't see how its off subject.

basher8621 wrote:

John has done a pretty good job at making his SQ truck get loud...

Fixed it for ya Steve.

Alan wrote:

Sweet. He should run trunk at finals. They'll have judges there

I've pondered cross competing in a few SPL classes. I typically do at local shows anyway. I'm working on some things right now.

Yes, it takes time, money, skill, and testing to run either SPL or SQ. But like Sketoe said, back on subject!

There is a reason that we have low SQ turnout. The other orgs don't seem to have this issue nearly like we do.

As a former competitor in USACi, I would like to give my input as to why I no longer compete in an effort to help the organization overcome a few obstacles.

In 2010, I attended at least 20 shows. At those shows, I, the competitor, had to provide the SQ judging SCORE SHEETS, for ALL the competitors, several times, because the person(s) running the event didn't have any, including one show that was run by Ralph HIMSELF.

In fact, at more than one show, upon being asked what I was filling out (SQ score sheet), I heard the "judge" tell an SPL competitor, "That's an SQ score sheet. YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT, IT'S A BIG PAIN IN THE A S S." Are you kidding me??? Why the H E L L would I want to support an organization that treats ANY of it's competitors like that?? If USACi truly cares about SQ, why would they allow their "judges" to talk to prospective SQ competitors in that fashion? That is the MAIN reason I stopped competing. Before anyone starts getting their feelings hurt, I'm not naming names, and this was from MORE THAN ONE JUDGE.

If I ran a business that had two possible avenues of income, and I heard one of my employees speak to a prospective customer and tell them that a product I sold was a pain in the a s s, that would be their last day on the job. PERIOD.

At several shows I attended, after driving to a "FULL EVENT," which to me says SQ along with SPL, I was told there would be no judging for SQ. If that's the case, why say FULL EVENT on the website? Tell it like it is, this is a show for SPL vehicles only and keep your SQ car at home. Finding out AFTER you've driven to the event that there isn't a QUALIFIED JUDGE, or H E L L, an SQ judge at ALL, is B U L L S H I T.

To balance the equation, I attended two shows that were run VERY well, Sketoe's show in Conway in 2011, and the NW Audio show in KCMO in 2010. They were VERY well organized, had a wonderful venue, and acted like they CARED about SQ. Those two shows and the ones Todd Crowder put on in his Soundoff Tour, were the ONLY shows I attended that acted like they cared about SQ.

It has been said that 90% of the whining and crying comes from SQ. Let's see, if most of the shows I attend treat me like S H I T, when does it become ok to complain? Normally I would not go on a public forum and talk about ANYONE like this, but I, as many others who compete, spend a crapload of money on this hobby/sport, and we just want the chance to be treated like we have value. Sadly, more often than not, the SQ portion is either out in the back 40 away from the show, or right in the middle of the SPL vehicles that are shaking hell's half acre while we are being judged.

My OPINION is this:
If we want things to IMPROVE, how about doing the SQ part early on while the SPL guys are charging batteries for their run and after that portion is finished, let the SPL guys shake the hell out of everything? If there are less than 5 SQ cars anyway, get them over and done and then let the party begin. I, for one, love walking around getting my brain (what's left of it) scrambled by a huge SPL machine. It's fun. BUT, I also like to listen to MUSIC and wish we could return to the days of having SPL included in the SQ portion.

As was suggested to me by Ray Rayfield, maybe we should have SQ trophies and SPL trophies (small ones) and then have an OVERALL (larger) trophy for 1st, 2nd and 3rd that combines BOTH, along with install. That way, there is true competition, and makes everyone want to improve so they can be the OVERALL champion.

Richard Nye

Great points Richard. We do have the SQ+ classes in USACI now that include sound, install, and SPL. Another org has a Triple Crown which includes sound, install, and RTA-SPL but sadly they cap SPL at 135.

Sq+ caps @ 150 if I rember right

tj lacharite wrote:

Sq+ caps @ 150 if I rember right

USACi SQ+ has no cap.

From the rule book....
The competitor’s score will be based on the SPL meter’s reading after the test track has been played. The competitor will receive full points for SPL. (Example: A competitor's SPL reads 143.2 so the competitor would receive 143.2 points in the SPL section of the score sheet)

As a matter of fact. In 2010 when you did a 146.8 ( a VERY respectable number for an SQ ride) I pulled off a 152.9 in mine. Not too shabby for the both of us I'd say. But no where near the numbers Todd's S-10 has done even back in the day. Now as Mr. Sketoe has suggested we should get back on the topic at hand.

jsketoe wrote:

scrapin is an awesome event too...dang shame Usac for that show doesn't care about sq there.
Fact is fact...sq competitors right now are drawn elsewhere...other orgs, car shows, or just out of the sport. One or two shows done right does not correct a season of BS. It(sq) needs to be done right or not at all.

(we had over 20 cars in sq at my show...I paid the bills...I know the expense...no excuse that u can't pay judges)

I told Ralph the same thing, he complains he can't afford an SQ judge at every event, HELL if he would MAKE his directors be trained in SQ he would have someone in the region to do it. The fact is that Ralph lets the director do what THEY want to NOT what HE should tell them to do.

And as far as not affording a SQ judge, I call Cow poopy myself, if MECA can have a QUALIFIED, CERTIFIED judge (and probably nationally known) at EVERY single point event and figure out how to pay for it, so could Ralph. IF MECA can host a triple point event and have NOT ONE but THREE QUALIFIED, CERTIFIED and most likely well known and RESPECTED judges there, so could Ralph, but what do we get for a triple point show with Ralph????? Most likely an untrained, unknown, person (not a judge) that could care less about SQ to try to judge the vehicles.

I'm like everyone else here, let's just call the kettle black and say that USACi doesn't want SQ and should drop any pretense that they do. To qoute from the guys earlier PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Even at that I don't think I can get my guys to come back to see if there is a change. I told Ralph today, its not up to me, its up to them, and HE NEEDS to call them PERSONALLY and say he is sorry, don't tell me as he has. But he al;so needs to back SORRY up with what he is DEFINITELY going to do to IMPROVE it and DO it, just not talk about doing it. I have been hearing about change for years and NEVER see it.