SQ at SCRAPIN= Disappointment...

I normally try to keep my mouth shut but sometimes things just need to be put out in the open. We just returned from Scrapin' the Coast in Biloxi today. While the show itself, which is mainly a huge car/truck show, was pretty awesome, the stereo competition was pathetic. I don't have a final car show entry total yet but I would assume they had well over 1500 vehicles at a minimum. Over 8000 spectators through the gate on Saturday alone. They sold ALL 2400 event tshirts, too (at $20 ea.).

I took my Camaro and had a customer & friend (Dustin Daigle) from New Orleans also bring his car (which was his FIRST show with NEW build this year). Ray from Linear/Blues had 5 guys competing including himself (one of which was ALSO a NEW true FIRST-time sq guy). An old friend and long time USACi supporter, Ralph Leake, was also there with a car entered (he also had a few in SPL). James Halter, also a good friend, was also there but did not compete but made the trip to demo some of his subs (there was 1 entry from TX). All of which bringing the TOTAL SQ "turnout" to NINE VEHICLES. SPL entries were over 150 according to the guys running the show (which btw were two- one on meter & one on mic).

I was made aware early Saturday morning that there was NOT a "certified SQ" judge even at the event. Now after a little confusion I was notified that one of the guys running SPL would be the SQ judge (sound & install). This was an apparent major problem with several at the show, not because of former "team affiliations" and a now severed relationship, but rather that the guy was NOT really an SQ judge nor had any background of ever having judged SQ at any event before. Please understand that this is in NO way a personal attack to any of those parties involved. I am simply stating the record.

In an attempt to rectify the problem, Ray had called Ralph and explained he situation. We BOTH ended up speaking with Ralph and I agreed to work with Ray and that if needed we would both judge any vehicles that either of us had in the same class or wherever there would have been a conflict. As it all worked out, being ONLY 9 SQ competitors total, NO two were in the same class, so everyone WON by default. No judging or contraversy involved in the final outcome (getting there- a different story).

Now with my thoughts on this event and basically ALL the rest for that matter...
1. No reason why MORE SQ competitors could not have SHOWED up for this event! There were show trucks from all over the country there (Maryland & Arizona I know for a fact).
2. SPL guys showed up by the tons- Bigger than Finals.
3. Huge venue, well organized car/truck show judging.
4. Well promoted event, it's 10th Anniversary this year!
5. Plenty of hotels, restaurants, and entertainment close-by- an added bonus.
6. Piss-poor 12v manufacturer support, although props to Kinetik, Memphis, MTX, Polk Audio, and whoever I forgot.

Every single SQ person (myself & the other 8 folks), all spent hard earned money, took off work, etc to get to this show and have our cars JUDGED! Not buy a trophy & points which is exactly what happened. Now I have been doing this for a long time and realize that things like this happen sometimes but frankly I am quite tired of it. I don't have to even have points for Finals (Xtreme class) but I try to show my support for this and other organizations whenever and however I can but enough is enough. Event promotors take NO priority in SOUND QUALITY hardly ever and this show is only further proof of the continued decline of SQ. This is not aimed solely at Greg, who hosts Scrapin, either. But it costs the same $50 to enter SPL as it does SQ. And if you can have/plan a successful event for 10 years that people enjoy and continue to return to from all over the country, CAN'T you find at least ONE well-known, proven, certified, SOUND guy, to judge a handful of cars????

I have been gone for 5 days attending this event, spent over $2000, and didn't work for 3 days myself at my shop only to return with a $50 (nice) gold metal 1st place cup for a car I am very proud of that wasn't even judged. Btw, I had NO MANUFACTURER support or monetary reimburement either. Zero. I have thought for the last 450 miles about why exactly I do what I do travelling to these shows. It is to compete. It is to help fellow competitors and help get new interest in the sport.

I simply refuse to continue to support something that does NOTHING for me and apparently is not, has not, and will not ever be a priority again. This post is only saying what the other 95% of ALL OF YOU HARD CORE SOUND GUYS are thinking anyway. I have not made my decision on Finals in Indy yet either but I can say that it is NOT looking good. I may stay at home this year, save $$$ and grief bigtime. Almost certain I will not go unless something really changes and I am guaranteed of top notch quality sound judges. I have nothing to prove and SPL will go right on along, without me being there. So there ya go- someone can go get an "easy" one.

Enough is enough.

Well...It could of been worse. Most of the shows I attend charge more for SQ entries than SPL. They claim it's because of the extra man power and time needed to judge SQ and then top the cake off with the same BS non judging and/or non qualified judging that you speak of.

"It could of been worse" is what I'm talking about. Unless your are a Newbie, most have grown to expect these sorts of things as almost any event. My point is that ALL shows on this large of scale should either make the SQ side of the event a priority and RUN IT RIGHT or just don't do it at all, like mainly happens in TX. It is no GD secret that nobody (well almost nobody) does not want to fool with the hassle, drama, and grief of promoting SOUND so then WHY HAVE IT AT ALL???

No disrespect to SPL or anyone involved in it but it does not take a rocket scientist to run a meter and place a microphone inside a vehicle (which is obviously way more profitable). Unless it's local, don't look for me there. That is bottom line. Each and every one of us is entitled to an opinion and that is mine. Like it or not. These are the facts.

^^^Edit...The Conway show was well organized and pretty well judged for the most part.. From an SQ perspective anyway. I'd like to see more shows like that. I know competitors that have shown up at shows advertised (there is a joke in itself) to be full on SQ and SPL just to be told by the director/head judge that they had no idea how to judge SQ nor did they even have sheets to do it.

TOTAL B U L L S H I T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay USACI, it's time to man up or shut up! Include sound quality or don't. If SPL is where the money is at, then simply do that like Jaffe said years ago. I've put entirely too much time, money, and devotion into USACi SQ. And to read posts like this just adds fuel to the fire.

Furthermore, before any of you USACi directors chime in to tell us how you enjoy the SQ competitors at shows and how you follow the rules to the T. I call B U L L S H I T again.


You charge me more money and don't even judge my car most of the time. When you do judge my car you give the most IGNORANT input I've ever heard from a sound quality perspective. Case in point, I've heard feedback ranging from "I don't hear any sound coming from behind me" to "You should have flashy lights around your head unit".

More to come as I'm sure I'll get more fired up! Ralph you have my #. Use it!

The Conway show IS an exception. John & Beth organized, promoted and ran a great event in a timely, professional manner. 20 SQ cars too. Oh and for all that don't get on here and R E A D. This event was both USACi and IASCA Triple Points held at the first of this month. It was a great show.

scrapin is an awesome event too...dang shame Usac for that show doesn't care about sq there.
Fact is fact...sq competitors right now are drawn elsewhere...other orgs, car shows, or just out of the sport. One or two shows done right does not correct a season of BS. It(sq) needs to be done right or not at all.

(we had over 20 cars in sq at my show...I paid the bills...I know the expense...no excuse that u can't pay judges)

Where any of these excuses made by greg? Just wondering

No "excuses" were made by Greg himself. Matter of fact, he not once came to me and explained anything. This post was not made to disrespect him either. He has always worked with me and my crew on getting show space at this event in anyway that he could and I really appreciate that. The dude puts on a helluva show. Maybe it should just stay car/truck show and NO SOUND COMPETITION. SOUND competition means SOUND not just SPL. Fortunately I was there to help assist this situation as best I could and I'm not on the payroll either. I can't help but wonder what would have happened if I hadn't showed up.

The problem here is USACi SQ in general. It has been overlooked for years and continues to get worse. All of you SPL guys have no idea of the level of unprofessionalism or lack of organization that continues to occur when it comes to SQ. You show up and rest assured there will always be at least one person at any event that can run the SPL meter which is really all that is required. True, someone should verify that each and every one of you are entered/verified in the appropriate class but as far as the actual amount of knowledge req'd to run an SPL event, it is held to a minimum.

I don't know exactly what happened this year at Scrapin but I ASSUME that Greg trusted his people running the USACI portion of the show to handle everything. John P. runs SPL and admits that he knows nothing about SQ. Acceptable, nothing wrong with that. This year John had another guy (from MS) that had competed last year or two briefly in SQ but had dropped out of it and went to SPL. This person has never judged SQ at any event that I am aware of and just because you "had" competed in SQ in the past DOES NOT QUALIFY you to JUDGE an SQ event anywhere or anytime. Further proof to this problem was the fact that this person "had" been affiliated with a Team at the show with five SQ cars. They even stated that this would not work, as they had "trained" him so to speak. Whatever the case, Greg prob took for granted that this person "claimed" he was a certified SQ judge and assumed that they would be fine judging his event this year. As it worked out, NO ONE was judged- due to poor turnout and NO ONE in the same class- so everyone WON by default.

It should NEVER matter how many or how few SQ guys show up at ANY show ANY where. The event promoter and/or USACi affiliate should have AT LEAST ONE QUALIFIED SOUND JUDGE there. Period. There could have just as easily been 25 cars there competing in SQ. What would have happened then? Bottom line is either have SQ judges or don't have SQ. It doesn't get any simpler than that. At one time there were probably close to 20 qualified people in the judging ranks & industry that gave a S H I T but them days are long gone and there's a reason for it too.

And lastly, DO NOT pretend to give a S H I T about anything SQ when you know absolutely NOTHING about it or really even care. This is directed at all USACi directors and event promoters or anyone wanting to hold a future event. Start posting SPL only on the schedule and show fliers AS TO NOT CONFUSE the small group who spend the same money as the SPL guys getting to the show to end up getting let down and getting a FREE trophy...

First of all i would like to fix a few problems with this post
1. i never said i was a certified usaci sq judge and just so you know most of the usaci directors are not certified sq judges
2. ray never trained me to do anything
3. i cut all ties with the team bc i got tired of all the bs and crying and whining that went on in that team and about 95% of the sq teams
would you like to know why people don't want to compete with yall it is bc yall sq guys cry whine and complaine too much and yall have a bad repation in the sound world
o by the way if you and ray would like to talk about me behind my back like i know yall allready have be people i know and trust have told me yall should be man enough to say it to my face i have never said any thing negative about yall to any one and if i did i would be a man to come and tell you to your face from now on if yall have anything to say about me yall know how to get ahold of me be a man at tell me

TJ, I don't have a problem with you as a person and have NOT said jack S H I T behind your back. I purposely did not mention your name in this post for a reason. Now its a different story. Anyway, props to you for handling the SPL duties and for even accepting the fact that you were, according to you, "volunteered" to judge SQ. I was not aware that you were NOT part of Team Linear/Blues until Sat. morning at the show. Regardless of being "certified" or not is the MAIN problem but even without that the simple fact that YOU and Ray's crew were former affiliated is enough to question integrity from anyone competing in SQ.

If Ray never "trained" you to do anything then I am in the wrong on that post and will be the first to admit it. The fact the all the crying and whining goes on at almost every event is not my problem. Drama seems to follow SQ no matter where it is. You don't like SQ nor the drama and BS associated with it, then fine with me but do NOT accept responsibilty to judge a show without the background in Sound and the Rulebook or that kind of attitude. Hey, I can appreciate the fact that you at least showed up and help run SPL.

Again, my reason for this entire post was to "bring to light" that there is NO reason why the things that happened at this show (& mainly all the rest) should have happened. At least, one qualified, certified sound judge could have been present and avoided the whole thing. It's all over with now so do not think I even started this post to degrade YOU or talk negative about YOU in any way. My phone # is on my website: www.tcaudio.net if you wish to talk about any of it. I don't talk about anybody behind their back.

i really do see both sides of the fence having competed in both sq and spl but the fact of the matter is that it seams to be that to only way sq noticed is by complaining about something and no one wants to be around a group like that and any one that knows me knows that i am the one person that tried to do both spl and sq but spl is where the competion is and i as a competitor i need people to compete with so i chose to compete in spl

I just went back and read every page of that two year old discussion that John linked.There was good conversation right there! Unfortunately, it doesn't look like much has changed for the better since then.

The promoters/directors still have the same smile on their face when they are taking your money. Then have a don't give a crap attitude when they drop the ball on organization and proper judging. Sure they are busy folks. They have alot going on. Improper planning and communication up front and in the days/weeks prior to a show fall on the directors. Sure there will be snags from time to time. But there is NO exuse not to have a qualified SQ judge at an event of this caliber. NONE!

It's not like Scrapin is a new show. It's not like we all don't now when/where it's going to be held well in advance. It's not a craps shoot on whether SQ cars will show up or not like at many of the other local shows.

Most of the "whining and moaning" from SQ competitors comes from the disrespect we get when we go to shows due to the lack of organization and lack of at least ONE qualified person to judge our cars. There are folks in the thread that John linked and folks in this thread that come from different teams. We're not complaining about one another here. Nor griping that "so and so" got special preference over the other, or any other BS. We are standing together making a statement about Sound Quality competition as we have seen it over time.

We spend the money for our builds and transportation cost jus the same as the SPL folks. Yet we get burned after driving 8 hours or more in an instance just to find out there are no qualified judges and/or even sheets at times. No wonder we whine and complain.

What if the tables were turned? What if an SPL guy drove hours after spending an all nighter trying to get an extra tenth of a db to go to a big show? Then when they got there, there was no meter? The director tells you that you won first by default because no one else was in your class. No reason to even have to judge. You just show up and get points and plastic. Verification DIDN'T HAPPEN, metering DIDN'T HAPPEN! Would you not be upset? You come away with zero input as to whether you actually gained on the USACi meter and to top it off you didn't get verified as being in the right class. Then you show up at a contest where there is a meter and a verification judge just to find out you have been running in the wrong class all year and your S H I T aint all that loud! Wouldn't you be whining and complaining then?

Oh, and Mr. Lacharite. No offense intended here, but could you please slow down long enough to use spell check and a little punctuation in future posts? It would really help the rest of us understand your point of view much more clearly.

I'd love to be trained to judge SQ cars.


Jump on it Greg.

After reading this and trying to get past being pissed off I have to say the comment that TJ said about most USACI directors not being certified to judge SQ is where ALL of the problem lies.
I agree with what Todd and John Roberts have said in there post and I am frustrated with how this is going I have tried and tried to keep SQ alive but when the rules unofficially changed to "go to your local junk yard and pick out a vehicle,rip out the interior,cover everything with a/c tape" We started losing respect as a whole on what we do. I know that last statement will piss off some people but I mean D A M N when you take someone new to a show(like I did this past weekend) and their first comment is where are all the finished sound cars at? It makes you think what kind of image are we projecting to the unknowing public?
Here goes my back in the day rant but I got into competing because I love music and I attended my first contest as a spectator in 1989 and continuied to travel all over as a spectator for many years before I ever built a car to compete. I did this because I loved looking at the cars and installs to get ideas and to learn more. Attending these shows I made some lifelong friends over the years,people like Todd Crowder would take the time to listen to me and answer questions I had without me being able at the time to spend any money with them. I know those days are gone but why exactly are they?
Last the comment that SQ guys are all bitching and complaining then I guess people that say that dont compete in SPL either because I hear way more bitching and complaing from them about someone cheating or competing in the wrong class,etc.. than us just complaining about being disrespected at show.
My 2 cents.

You don't see those cars ...because people don't build them. They build what you saw. A wall of 10s or 18s and stupid amounts of power and hair tricks. Times changed. Should show that with the ratio of what and what , like you guys saw...the comments about junk yard cars is disrespectful itself. Sorry everyone can't afford a $40k car to haul around to shows.

None of this threat has been intended to disrespect any SPL competitors. Times have definitely changed from what they once were. I am fairly certain that everybody on here realizes that MOST people do not have or cannot afford to build a first class show vehicle to compete in SPL, although there are a FEW out there.

SPL is way easier to compete in, plain and simple. Yes, it costs money for amps, subs, and batteries. Even more the higher in class you go. Nobody is questioning this point. The point is that show promoters advertise sanctioned events and there are ALWAYS SPL meters & guys to run them at any show you attend but almost never at least one qualified judge to handle the SQ duties. This is not "whining & complaining". SQ competitors just want the same that SPL guys want. Bottom line, is to let everyone know in advance, via flyers, schedule, or whatever that an upcoming event will have SQ and it will be done right. You already know that SPL will be, as this is the bread and butter for ANY of the sanctioning bodies still left.

No need to turn this thread into a he said she said, B I T C H and whine fest over which is better SPL or SQ. Originally, back in the day, IT WAS BOTH ROLLED INTO ONE anyway and frankly, I loved that the best over what we have today. Times change, org's change, competitors change, classes & rules change, and if it is decided that SQ is no longer needed then get rid of it ALL TOGETHER.

I don't think the thread is meant to be. But so much of your comnents are. I'm not even concerned with the thread in my replies .. just your silly comments and jabs at the spl competitors you chose to keep making. And i won't even bother arguing with which is more "easy" maybe easier to own.. and less pain in the ass. But that's about it.[quote]

Alan I knew the junkyard comment would make some people mad. I was not trying to disrespect anyone.....but when I first got into this even the SPL heavy cars were still built nice and clean and finished out. You have to admit that there are some cars that go to shows that literally look like they should be sent to a junkyard. And FYI I can not afford a $40,000 car just to compete with either my comp car is a 1994 Honda Accord that is daily driven. Like Todd said we(SQ guys) are not mad at the SPL guys. We are just upset that we get disrespected at shows. I mean look at the upcoming Finals we are not even sure that SQ will be there but SPL guys have nothing to worry about except doing their best. Again we are not trying to make jabs at the SPL competitors themselves we are just pointing out that SPL guys never have to worry when they travel to a show if they will be judged fairly or even judged at all. What if I hosted a show that advertised USACI event and you drove over and when you got here I said we dont have a meter but I will have a guy sit in evryones car and he will determine what vehicle is the loudest. Would you as an SPL competitor be upset? That is all we are saying. Not upset with competitors just the directors and the org.

That's not what was said. If there were 100+ sq cars and 7 spl cars at shows it would probably be different. Mixed in all this is a bunch of comments to discredit why spl cars and competitors shouldn't get the attention. Junk yard cars.. ugly builds.. its to easy.. its not our fault sq turn outs suck and there's not much effort there to support it at shows.

All in all I understand why your upset. But don't drag us spl guys through the mud to try and make it better or whatever the goal is there. As if we aren't good enough to be there cause the cars aren't pretty enough for your crowd. Facts are if your crowd was there and the majority (competition and spectator) then it would be different. I can't recall how many people where so excited to see the camero on display. But ill bet there was 1000+ who wanted to come have their head knocked off by Jonathan prices tahoe or bo's ranger..

By me saying "EASY" means easy to compete at any show. Show up, get in line, open door, person sits meter in, close door, start, 30sec, "burp" (or streetbeat), then done, etc. Again dude, I am not trying to discredit or disrespect any SPL folks in any way. But if you want to turn this thread/complaint of lack of SQ support BY PROMOTORS and ORGANIZATIONS themselves into a SQ vs SPL battle then we can.

After all, destroying a vehicle, that rarely even reproduces MUSIC by installing a big enclosure with several big woofers, big amps, big batteries, and usually big or multiple alternators is not exactly rocket science. It will be loud. No secret there. I think we all love music, well we must to even keep talking about it. There are just two entirely different approaches to it. One way is not better than the other, just different.

Btw, it's not our (SQ) fault either that USACI or anyone else "decided" to make "sq suck". I didn't start doing this when it first started back in '87 but I was there right after that, believe me. I have done it since '90 professionally and have seen it all. If you don't have anything positive to say concerning SQ and its dying form then please stick to SPL, enjoy it, and don't add BS comments on here that are not relevant.

Todd, you're taking his posts out of context.

I can't see how it is logistically feasible to have someone special there to judge SQ when there are usually NO competitors in it.

The last scrapin I attended had a grand total of 1 SQ competitor(a Lexus I believe from your team).

That is the sole reason why there is no love for SQ.

First of all, its CAMARO and I didn't take my car to the show for the crowd to be "excited" and your right there were tons of people standing in-line to listen to JP's Tahoe. Good for him. Too bad the dude got screwed on the install. Both of which are all irrelevant to this entire "SQ" discussion. Don't you have another forum to post on? If you don't compete in SQ, have never been to a member's meeting (when we had those), help "re-write" the Rules for the betterment of the organization and the all competitors, and obviously really don't have it at heart, then this discussion does not really concern you...

You aren't reading the posts....

I said the last time I went to scrapin there was one car. Not this year's show, and never did I imply that it was your car.


Why are you arguing about this? You act as if the SPL guys wish you weren't around.

I've already said they aren't relevant to your b itchfest. I also said my point was don't drag us down and bag about what we do or our cars looks etc effn etc.. its not rocket science to read either. Unlike competing sq. Its rocket science. To beat the whole 5 people who care to run it. Y'all have fun.


And as I hit send it shows another post.. ill go ahead and reply.. sorry.. my phone argued with me about 5 times about how camaro is spelled.
And what other forum? This is a usaci forum.. and your mention of how shitty spl cars are invited me and mY concern to the conversation .. and FYI I've been to 3 member meetings when they had those :-)

Walter, we can all have this discussion about "why" there's no judge or no competitors but it doesn't change the fact that any event that is sanctioned by an organization that is advertise to offer a full show (all classes, etc) should provide the amount of qualified personnel to judge the event properly.

It is not an argument that (hypothetically) "Well last year there was only 3 cars, so we don't really need a sound judge. We'll be ok without one". It is unprofessional and unorganized. Period. And sorry if I have taken anyone's comments "out of context". Bottom line, if you don't know what you are talking about then don't say anything. If you don't compete in SQ or never have then don't say anything. Or this is a public forum for everyone to see, so say what you want but be prepared for a response.

TeamTCA wrote:

Walter, we can all have this discussion about "why" there's no judge or no competitors but it doesn't change the fact that any event that is sanctioned by an organization that is advertise to offer a full show (all classes, etc) should provide the amount of qualified personnel to judge the event properly.

It is not an argument that (hypothetically) "Well last year there was only 3 cars, so we don't really need a sound judge. We'll be ok without one". It is unprofessional and unorganized. Period. And sorry if I have taken anyone's comments "out of context". Bottom line, if you don't know what you are talking about then don't say anything. If you don't compete in SQ or never have then don't say anything. Or this is a public forum for everyone to see, so say what you want but be prepared for a response.

Practice what ya preaching man. Don't make stupid comments and not expect the people your making them about to not have something to say. And i guess ill have to add this AGAIN my replies have ZERO give a $hit about why there was no sq judge. But in reply to why spl is not good enough to get the main focus

Well true true. If SQ was respected enough and ran properly maybe there would be more than "5" of us to compete. Exactly my whole point. Maybe I will just bring my S10 back out SPL only this time so at least I have someone to compete against. Whole lot less grief.