Amp certification question

First topic message reminder :

Recent topics have got me thinking about the procedure for amps to be "certifeied" by USACI and given a 4 ohm output rating. I have a few questions and concerns I'd like to put out there...

1. Once an amp is "USACI CERTIFIED" is it's rating set in stone or can it be protested at a later date?

2. Is there one location used for varification and protests or multiple? And I believe it should be made public who does the testing. (if it hasn't already been)

3. If an amp is a usaci varified amp and there is reason to believe someone has tampered with the amp to up the output etc. What can be done about it? Can that very person's amplifier be protested?

I have been thinking alot about all of this lately and I guess it's just not good enough for me to think that we shoudl take any manufacturer's word for it that they wouldn't try to squeak an amp or 2 past USACI that maybe isn't as strong as it could be... or maybe the protection circuit is messed with just enough to not allow it to put out it's true power for that test or whatever the heck you could do to an amp to make it "seem" weaker. Heck I'm no electrical engineer, just some thoughts running through my head.
I want to make it clear that I am in no way insinuating that any manufacturer has done or is planning to do this, it is simply something that could be done somewhat easily so I think there should be some sort of protection or double check put in place to discourage anyone from doing it. I guess what bothers me the most is the potential for the consumer/competitor to modify an amplifier to up the output without the manufacturer or anyone else knowing. That would give that competitor a clear advantage over another running a non modified amp.
In my opinion there should be something in place to check for this and if it is found there should be a stiff penalty.

Does anyone else see the potential for some major cheating to happen here or is it just me?

Stingraysevenout wrote:

Maybe just go back to the old days of Dom doing the tests ya know.

Sorry Jimbo, but that would be way to reasonable! That suggestion makes way too much sense. Why would you even offer it?

USACI wrote:

Amps are tested at a lab in Canada. We made the annoucement some time back. While the map manufacturer cannot be protested after an amp is certified an individual who may have modded amps can be at any time.

Canada? Why the heck Canada LOL We shipped just 2 subs to a guy up there and it was expensive as hell. So you guys are paying that much more shipping to Canada just to have them tested? Isn't there someone in the U.S. that could do it. Just wondering is all. Is it a trust issue or?

KC_LOUD&CLEAR wrote:

I think they ought to do like in stock car racing. if one car out runs the pack by a large margin the driver protesting can claim the competitors engine by putting up like 1000.00 if the engine proves to be legal the protestor loses money to the protestee and he gets to keep his motor too if the motor is ilegal the protestor get the high dollar motor for 1000.00

Not a bad idea BUT this would rely on the bench test and how it's done to be very accurate. Any mistake and someone may wrongfully be out an amp And what if that particular competitor truly didn't do anything to the amp himself....maybe the manufacturer changed something in production without him knowing and it's bit higher, then what? He loses his amp for something he wasn't even aware of?
I don't know what the answer is, but if we all keep coming up with ideas I'm sure we can come up with something reasonable.

chris the issue with a mulitmeter and a clamp is called impedance rise my friend this wont work correctly or even close either.


the only soulution to amps is the most expensive answer there is and thats have no ratings at all. So id thats the route we go then we screw all the little guys, and boast the ego's of all the comp teams with big ass amps getting rediculouse deals as it is

Sanford...I dont' think you're getting what i meant...

Let's say it was your amp in question... we clamp and record your ACV and ACA at let's say...volume 20 with your setup in your vehicle with your impedance rise. We then record those numbers to figure out your wattage. THEN we put in the same model amp into your same setup with the same impedance rise...roll the volume to 20 again and record those numbers. IF they are within a certain percentage you are good to go. Atleast that's a start to what we could do.
I know it woudl rely upon someone having the same amp as you but chances are somebody would have one.

agreed and with ya know

so now it relies on batteries for acuracy lol

and the same gain settings

Ok.... let me reclairify what I said. I say that the car goes thru inspection,(it does anyway at finals already), and if an amp shows up as not being on a pre-made list then it cannot be used. Pulling the amp durning inspaection for testing is not what I said. This was my suggesttion. EXAMPLE- Lets say and amp comes out to be rated at 600@4 ohms. It would need to be sent in to our bench,god forbid its in Canada, And it tests with its 30% give or take thing, then it will be ok to use thru the year. If the company feels that they don't need to test it then a competitor must send it in to be tested if he or they as a team would like it used. Its time that companies like Kicker, Cactus Sounds to be given a fair chance when they compete. These two companies are still helping USACI to do what we do. Why should a fly by night company ride thier(kicker and Cactus Sounds) coattails when they(Fly by night comany) dont do anything to help our sport. Cactus Sounds and Kicker spanks ass when it come to supporting USACI. We need these guys. They help us. The fly by night guys dont support USACI. We need the DB Drives, Crossfires, Soundstraeams, Kenwoods and so forth. They help the sport and USACI. We need to bring them back into the mix.

KC_LOUD&CLEAR wrote:

I think they ought to do like in stock car racing. if one car out runs the pack by a large margin the driver protesting can claim the competitors engine by putting up like 1000.00 if the engine proves to be legal the protestor loses money to the protestee and he gets to keep his motor too if the motor is ilegal the protestor get the high dollar motor for 1000.00

THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!

AM i TO ASSUME YOUR SPEAKING OF RD AUDIO AS A FLY BY NIGHT OUTFIT HERE, AND NOONE SAID YOU SAID TO PULL AMPS AT FINALS I DID WHEN I SAID IF I GET BEAT IN THE LANES BY ENOUGH TO MAKE ME GO HMMM THEN I SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHALLENGE THAT AMPLIFIER AT THAT TIME, AND NOT ONE SENT IN BY A MANUFAC. THE BEST THING I HAVE READ ON HERE WAS BY MR ESTES BUT WE SEE THOSE WORDS, AND COMMENTS WERE DLETED WITH A QUICKNESS CAUSE IT HIT REALLY CLOSE TO HOME WITH SOME.

Some competitors do know how to mod amplifiers as well, and the company shuld not have to pay for there cheating ways.

I did not say who were fly by night companies. I am all for people who support USACI and its members. It was an EXAMPLE. Don't get mad about this. This is where we need to talk about the problem. I think you know what I mean about this. We need to support the companies that support USACI. If we want the sport to grow, we need to keep these companies close by us. I will also say this.....And I know im going to get shit about this, WORLD FINALS NEEDS TO BE IN DALLAS OR FORT WORTH OR EVEN IN OKLAHOMA CITY. Kansas City was awsome and I know that Omaha was great, but our fan base is in the mid-west. We will have more people compete. Its warmer in DFW, closer to a major airport, has a huge venue and hotels galore. Also as DJMAN37 pointed out=MORE STRIP CLUBS TOO.

BTW....I didn't get to read what Charles said.

RXZILLA wrote:

I did not say who were fly by night companies. I am all for people who support USACI and its members. It was an EXAMPLE. Don't get mad about this. This is where we need to talk about the problem. I think you know what I mean about this. We need to support the companies that support USACI. If we want the sport to grow, we need to keep these companies close by us. I will also say this.....And I know im going to get shit about this, WORLD FINALS NEEDS TO BE IN DALLAS OR FORT WORTH OR EVEN IN OKLAHOMA CITY. Kansas City was awsome and I know that Omaha was great, but our fan base is in the mid-west. We will have more people compete. Its warmer in DFW, closer to a major airport, has a huge venue and hotels galore.

BTW....I didn't get to read what Charles said.

ya left out strip clubs GALORE!!!

Corrected

RXZILLA wrote:

BTW....I didn't get to read what Charles said.

X2

Jeff you speak like you know of an mfgr that’s going to do something like that..... Any thoughts?

It's great that Kicker and Cactus "support" USACI. We need more company's to step up and do it. BUT the day USACI tells me or my customers they can't run an amp because it's not on a list...is the day I suggest they don't compete. We cannot be dictators and tell people you MUST run this or that product....freedom of choice. Start limiting what brands people can use and the competitor count would drop like a rock. Especially at local shows, the shows that make USACI there money.
Oh and by the way... Steve at RD has expressed his interest in becoming a USACI member. I am not speaking for him but he has mentioned he plans to do so.

sanman wrote:

agreed and with ya know

so now it relies on batteries for acuracy lol

Thats where a tolerance could be allowed....

agreed Steve has also expressed being a sponsor of Usaci to me as well.

greg no comment to what you asked doesnt matter if i do or dont it wont change, and people will sit back eventually and say damm he had alot of insight

RXZILLA wrote:

Ok.... let me reclairify what I said. I say that the car goes thru inspection,(it does anyway at finals already), and if an amp shows up as not being on a pre-made list then it cannot be used. Pulling the amp durning inspaection for testing is not what I said. This was my suggesttion. EXAMPLE- Lets say and amp comes out to be rated at 600@4 ohms. It would need to be sent in to our bench,god forbid its in Canada, And it tests with its 30% give or take thing, then it will be ok to use thru the year. If the company feels that they don't need to test it then a competitor must send it in to be tested if he or they as a team would like it used. Its time that companies like Kicker, Cactus Sounds to be given a fair chance when they compete. These two companies are still helping USACI to do what we do. Why should a fly by night company ride thier(kicker and Cactus Sounds) coattails when they(Fly by night comany) dont do anything to help our sport. Cactus Sounds and Kicker spanks ass when it come to supporting USACI. We need these guys. They help us. The fly by night guys dont support USACI. We need the DB Drives, Crossfires, Soundstraeams, Kenwoods and so forth. They help the sport and USACI. We need to bring them back into the mix.

Think about how many amps are used in this sport, then think about how much it would cost for them to be tested. Its not practical even just thinking about current amps, not to mention previous models from years past that are still popular. You make an amp list of what need sot be used and you will be writting off many competitors.

Scott and Chris....good points. These are things tht need to be discused. This is great info. I never said it was bullet proof just a thought. I think you know what I mean. This is great imput from everyone. Its just a start.

PLEASE HERE ME OUT! This issue is not as hard as some of you are making it seem.

Whether your talking about an amplifier that has already been tested and rated by USACI or an amplifier that has only been rated by the manufacturer either one could be putting out more watts than allowed in a particular class.

The USACI rated amp could be modded to do more power and used at regionals or finals.

The "questionable amp that has yet to be protested or rated by USACI could also do more than allowed in a particular class.

Now most of the people that are going to finals, getting in the top 3, or vetrans of the sport know your shiznit pretty good and you cant tell me that you wouldn't notice a "questionable" amp if you tried it, and if there was any doubt it aint that hard to test within 20% accuracy.

SIMPLE SOLUTION! Do random testing at finals and make it be known that it will happen. If someone wants to use a "cheater amp" whether it be modded or just a questionable amp they'll be taking a chance. Penalty could be just not allowed to compete at finals or 1 year ban or even get tested again at next finals or what ever.

Only needs done for the people competing in the first 3 power classes of each division. Wouldn't be that hard to do. When I say random I mean picked by a computer program. They could do 1 vehicle out of stock division, 1 out of prostock, 1 out of mod, 1 out of super mod. This would discourage any amplifier cheating and also encourage competitors and manufacturers to test and rate amplifiers more accurately.

pg4









































THERE IS NOTHING IN THE RULES ABOUT AMPS MODS!
have a nice day!

El Jimador wrote:

PLEASE HERE ME OUT! This issue is not as hard as some of you are making it seem.

Whether your talking about an amplifier that has already been tested and rated by USACI or an amplifier that has only been rated by the manufacturer either one could be putting out more watts than allowed in a particular class.

The USACI rated amp could be modded to do more power and used at regionals or finals.

The "questionable amp that has yet to be protested or rated by USACI could also do more than allowed in a particular class.

Now most of the people that are going to finals, getting in the top 3, or vetrans of the sport know your shiznit pretty good and you cant tell me that you wouldn't notice a "questionable" amp if you tried it, and if there was any doubt it aint that hard to test within 20% accuracy.

SIMPLE SOLUTION! Do random testing at finals and make it be known that it will happen. If someone wants to use a "cheater amp" whether it be modded or just a questionable amp they'll be taking a chance. Penalty could be just not allowed to compete at finals or 1 year ban or even get tested again at next finals or what ever.

Only needs done for the people competing in the first 3 power classes of each division. Wouldn't be that hard to do. When I say random I mean picked by a computer program. They could do 1 vehicle out of stock division, 1 out of prostock, 1 out of mod, 1 out of super mod. This would discourage any amplifier cheating and also encourage competitors and manufacturers to test and rate amplifiers more accurately.

Thas sounds cool!


So
have a bench set up at finals... have USACi do a 4 ohm load test.... and see where every thing falls

I didn't see anything about modded amps in the rules, not this year anyways, I think it should be ok as long as the amp can still pass a random test.

I guess it does say on page 3 competitors with amps that are modded internally will be moved into the unlimited power class, but that rule needs to be enforced or defined better.

Some of the people simply take out protection to run 18 volts and I dont see a promblem with that.

oops so it does say something bout modding amps like i thought it did, and ralph told me as well.

the problem with taking out the protection is the fact that you are doing to an amp what was not meant to be done therefore casuing a change in the amps blueprints wich would e a modification

el jimador

PROPER POWER CLASS:
A competitor may not compete in a power class other than the one that his/her total system
power dictates. The exception to this would be the unlimited or “OPEN” power class
Any and all amplifiers within the vehicle under test will be included in the system’s total power.
This sum will not include the power, if any, of the systems source unit (radio, cassette tape or CD
player) unless it is actively driving a speaker or a group of speakers. All amplifiers in the vehicle
must be operational and actively used in operating the sound system during testing or be
physically removed. At local events amplifiers may be left in the vehicle provided the event
director has the ability to definitively determine the amplifier is not in use.
Competitors whose systems include amplifiers that are not manufacturer rated, are modified
internally, or not commercially available will be required to compete in the unlimited power class
of their respective division.

this for those having issues finding it in the rules Greg anything you do to an amp internally is a mod therefore making you unlimited

Also have to look at the mod, as stated.

When the protection is taken out of an amp, most being the case. It either helps them be more stable at lower ohm loads or take higher voltage.

So if a test is done to said amp, then it will still do the power that it has been rated at.

Now if someone replaced some parts, then that is a totally different story in itself. Which I have seen some do to get more out of there amp and still remain in a certain class.

no you dont and ill point out your weekness on this subject also
modded internally=anything that has been done after it leaves the manufacturor, or does not come comercially this way.

as soon as you go in internally and remove something or start changing things around well you have modded the amp its not rocket science here fella's stop thinking and read what the rules say verbatem. I will say these are the rules, and I dont know why it would need to happen, but ralph can solve this major ? we have