Back in the day

First topic message reminder :

We used to hold sq events that would draw fifty cars. What has happened?
Too complex, too expensive, loss of interest?

Too many i-phones?

We need to make it cheap and easy.

Just my opinion.

robrice

Where's Obama when you need him? lol

Really ... lol

Hi all,

SQ fell off over time. It will take time for it to build back up. I bet there are quite a few cars still around just gathering dust, the owners wanting to do shows but are waiting for all the CRAP to stop.

Lets be honest, the install rules aren't that much different from the rules back in the late 90's. Sound scoring isn't that much different either. A car built in the late 90's can be very competitive today, at least in sound. I proved that last year at DSN.

Now here's the lighting bolt. Two years ago you had a few money invite shows. There were quite a few cars at each of these shows. This year DSN didn't happen (I assume). So Elite (a MECA only) and Pate's show are the only two money shows this year I know of. I was really hoping that trend would have caught on and there would be more shows (or at least the same number the past two years).

USAC has changed divisions and classes how many times in the past 5 years? Without the org. actually getting out and working the shows with judges and directors that actually know SQ, it is doomed to fail. If a new guy wanting to compete isn't helped at a show by the org., who is going to help him/her? Somebody needs to go to business school and take the class about promotion.

(NOTE to any Sound Organization.... Your customers are not responsible for promoting your business)

Markey Dietrich

competitor since 1995

I dust every day. lol

Hey, Markey! Don't mention just how many times they changed rules in 5 years, heck they just changed the classes and rules in mid year just a few weeks ago. How confusing is that for someone half way through the season. There is NO reason to keep changing rules other than to create chaos. Just as you said, after everything is said and done we had the contest and SQ rules figured out 20-25 years ago. Stage height, width, depth, center image, channel separation, noise ........ none of that has changed; I still think our ears or on the sides of our heads too! So whats up with all the changes, just for someone to say they have their two cents on paper, I.E. egos?? To make it so difficult and confusing to keep up with, that people quit?

The classes are all screwy in my eyes(and we probably have too many of them to), and beginners/novices/intro's now have no option but to run install, spl and sq, but higher classes can go SQ only. Whats up with that. They don't want to make this process easy for anyone! Or make it easy for a newbee to be able to compete, Newbees/novices/intro(what ever you are going to call them next week) should have it the easiest to make them want to learn and come back.(Probably should't have to pay so much as the rest either) Yes, I know a lot of things are marked out of the sheet for intro SQ but they still don't have an option to just do SQ which would be less daunting on a first timer, than being told they have to be judged for SPL and install, when alot of these small new systems are not even set up for SPL numbers and probably need to get an idea of installation too. They are not trying to work things so someone will want to do SQ or even come back. Upper classes and more seasoned competitors should have to run everything in my opinion but they can slip by with "SQ only" if they choose to.

All of these classes whether for SPL or SQ are just like a LIBERAL car show, "lets make so many classes that we hurt no ones feelings and send everyone home with a trophy". A trophy should represent excellence, not that you went to a show and paid money to get in and expected to take a trophy home.

Well the cream gets lost in the curd at that point! It just waters down the success of the really good systems and makes the trophies worth less than the plastic they are made from in my opinion. Lets talk about that too, in the past we gave REAL trophies away, made of real metal and stone, as well as, money to each top winner. If we cut the number of all these classes we could have better trophies and cash pots too.(Forget prizes, most people have already chosen their brands and already have a working stereo and giving them some 7.99 Tiawanese set of tweeters of a set of 29.99 Chinese woofers or even a 299 dollar retail class D amp that we all know cost the dealer 75.00 or less, is not going to impress them, they could use 30, 40 or 50 bucks to buy a parting meal when leaving the event and/or pay for the gas to get home or even pay for their entry fee!! (Gee thats a novel idea!)-THAT means something to them)

Giving out so many trophies to so many divisions does more than just watering down the meaning of the trophy, it waters the finances down so everything has to be cut back so the management has more money to go home with.

Everyone wanting better SQ shows; quit dusting things off and get up and do and say something that can be heard, so loud, by so many, that someone has to listen!

Holy Crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What's up Markey! I will tell you right now any of the car from the old days would handily kick most of the cars out right now! The builds done by Biggs, Nolan, Todd, Wilson, Larry, Mark....etc where unbelievable. It was getting beat by all those guys that pushed me.

ray i agree with every thing here and as a 6 year competitor and this being my first year doing sq the way the way all sq competitors are treated is not right it could make someone like me just give up and go back to spl but i am one of the few that will not give up i have heard all the older sq guys ( ray Rayfield, Mike Flanagan, Todd Crowder, and many more) talk about the old days and it sounds so much better and more fun when guys did sq and spl at the same time with the same car like i try to do maybe we do need to bring back the old days

thanks to every one for your support try your best to have fun and play good music


T.J.Lacharite

I agree, I think it should be a combination of sq and spl. I even think RTA should be brought back into the mix. It is the complete package that should win top honors.

I also think everyone that competes should get some type of award for their effort.

Just a thought.

Rob

I agree, I think it should be a combination of sq and spl. I even think RTA should be brought back into the mix. It is the complete package that should win top honors.

I also think everyone that competes should get some type of award for their effort.

Just a thought.

Rob

Very interesting.

Well......

Any car from back in the day is better........hmmmm

Well Chris just send me the first place check from your show right now. IGGY is sitting about 20 feet from me already to go, I promise the tune is the exact same as it was last year at DSN. Nick can just copy his scores from that show and that should be the high score for your show...... Yeah and I have some lakefront property I'll sell ya cheep.

Look I know what the MS-8 is capable of. I sat in Andy's car four years ago with the beta version and I saw the future and my car was yesterdays news.

Years ago when all these rule changes started I knew it wasn't good. The dumbing down of cutting out RTA and either capping SPL or just doing away with it all together was just plain wrong. Didn't anybody else realize that doing away with RTA and SPL just made it easier for guys like me to win? Look the only things that you controlled 100% was your RTA and SPL scores. It also gave the almost there cars a chance. Let Mr. Big blow his RTA test and everybody just got 10+ points closer. Today Mr. Big knows he has it wrapped simply because he was smart enough to make sure he doted his i's and crossed his t's when he did his install. And his sound is good because his tune is spot on. No way for Mr. Almost to close the gap.

Look I don't have any of the answers. I have just been around a long time and have seen what worked and what didn't work. I've been involved with two organizations and both have done about all the same moves. None seemed to work or better said the changes weren't allowed to mature before more were done.

comments? nasty retorts?

Markey Dietrich

competitor since 1995

Markey, I agree with what you've said. The "dumbing down" just seemed to be a way to shorten the judging time in the lanes. I'll add that there will be no easy fix. And I, like you, have been there, done that, and said WTF. The difference is that I quit competing because of the BS and you did not. This is my first year back competing after a 15 year hiatus. I stayed just connected enough through friends competing and a few in the industry to know I did not want to get back in. After the proding of several friends, I'm back competing, but still see a lot of the same issues from all those years ago.
John

well......I said most of the cars.....LOL! I think is definitely a cool piece that is another tool to allow installers and shops to create another path to selling great sound.

I would be awesome for you to bring the probe to our show. There will be some great sounding rides....including Eldridge's Nascar.

Chris,

I have to take a pass on your show. Finances are a bit tight at the moment.

Why the crack about Mark's car? It is a great vehicle.

Markey Dietrich

competitor since 1995

6 time USAC and IASCA Champion ( won when there were over 10 cars in the class)

I Didn't really think saying Mark's Nascar is gonna be at my show was a crack at all. I feel very fortunate to have that caliber of car competing in my event. Although we have had our moments at times Mark is a friend...and a fellow Aggie Alum. I understand the finance situation. I hope one day we can get all of these awesome rides from the past and present in one show. It would be so cool to see all of them in one spot and to be a part of a competition like that. Take care buddy it is great seeing you still be a part of this wacky sport.

I am going to start doing Wayne's deal. Less subjective, more cut and dried.
Put a meter in the car and be done.

Make a lot of noise and draw a crowd of people.

Rob

robrice wrote:

I am going to start doing Wayne's deal. Less subjective, more cut and dried.
Put a meter in the car and be done.

Make a lot of noise and draw a crowd of people.

Rob

That's ashame, but that is a big part of the reason I quit competing so many years ago. I did not think or see that the judging was subjective. What I saw at contests I attended was a lot of brand bias, where particular brands were ALWAYS the winners. Those brands also happened to be the biggest organization supporters. Coincidence? I didn't think so, so I stayed home. Do I think there is still bias, to some extent yes. But you can't change human nature.

A lot of Organizers would love to have the same thing as SPL for SQ. A mic and a computer program to judge the car. Less subjective, more cut and dried. Put a mic in the car and be done in a minute or so. It wouldn't make a lot of noise or draw a crowd, but they could get SQ "out of the way" with no need for a trained judge, scoresheets or any real sense of organization.

John I think Rob was just being facicious( i hope i spelled that right!) at least i hope so! But heck even Waynes crowds have depleted (didnt look like that big of a crowd at world finals last year). I mean when youve got to do a live link to Japan Europe and Africa to have enough competitors to play the game.......

Very, Very interesting read !!! Thanks guys ...

Things have changed, the differnce in scoring is a big thing, Midwest used to have some of the top and most sq cars, Greg Stereo One, Nate the RF truck from IL, Eric the Orion Mustang, Bob with the avenger, Dennis with the Mitsubishi, Shannon(RIP) with the talon, i know there is more I am older now and loosing my mind ok? lol

Here is one reason I got out, is to take the human biased part out of it, it was great when flashdance was used for spl portion of sq so you, rta's there could be does that 20 became a 18 that's 2 points that could make it closer, and then the louder in spl, which makes it more challenging to tune a car well and sound good but be louder then another in spl also. As Marky said these are some of the very very little things we could control. But still I remember for example me and shannon being in the same class. I am a sq judge/was and one of my good friends were. I placed at finals the year before ripped car apart to start over. Well it kept getting judged during completetion usually by the Head of the event so no biased, we build that thing strong. And yet at finals I dont place and get beat by shannon by over 100 points on the sheet? I went to Ralph at that time and said never again come on a car not completed was withen 40 points of him at last show both cars were at, and head judge would judge both of them. now completed and even nicer and I lose by over 100 points.. Nope no thanks. Yes I loved the sound of it, but still enjoyed spl also. So tore my card up right then and said no more sq, and went spl after that.

Yes his car should of beat me as his car was awesome and nicely done the sceamin eagle for any of us old folks out there. How ever he took first, I figured i would be 2-3rd range, and not place and get stomped. And remember you have 2 judges building the car, one of them even judged different class at finals. That just knocks everything out of you and say screw it make the meter decide for now on LOL..

I enjoyed all the people I met and still kinda talk to to this day from it, how ever

shannon was a great friend man...you know the crash that jack roush just had was the same conference I think that Shannon was going to when his accident happened. Crazy. I learned a lot from him. He followed me around in 97 and said he was gonna kick my butt in 98...he would've too. I went pro in 98 and got my butt kicked anyway. LOL

I can't wait for USACI finals! It should be a real blast.

i wish it were done as well. It will be some day. I think?

Rob

Sorry for bringing this up but I just read it and had to post.
I started in the beginning of competition, my first show as with C.A.N . I have may not have been a full time competitor, but $$$ and family came first. Anyway, I have followed competition since then. Competing off and on till my last show in 2005. I have seen the heyday of shows and the scarceness of them. I have had the "bug" big time at times. The pushing factor was mostly: 1) seeing other vehicles at shows, and getting beaten. 2) the magazines, seeing Iggy, Mark's 4runner, Rob's Civic, etc was the inspiration to push me to improve and show.
Having local shows was a factor in competing, 99.9% of all competitors started at a local show. put on by Joe blows stereo. Now it is almost a days trip to a "local" event. bigger shows are farther.
Local shops don't see any advantage to holding a show. That is why local shows have all but gone away. There is nothing to bring in the beginner, no magazine to see other systems to inspire you.
The rules have basically remained unchanged since the inception of the organizations. But with the constant rule changes can cause people major grief. year to year, refinements or clarification is one thing, But middle of the season is asinine unless it is a clarification, period.
IMHO getting rid of the power classes is a mistake. I enjoy running lower wattage. While I have not competed since the power classes where eliminated. but it seems like a $$$$ thing now. In my class I may only have 2 amps with passive crossovers. another in my class may have an amp for each speaker, and 100s or even 1000s more watts. Looks how well Richard Clark's grand National did with an amp for each speaker. I know it is my choice. All of my competition vehicles have been " mostly" either our family vehicle or my wife's daily driver. Including my next comp car, my wife's Lincoln. I don't have the $$$ for a dedicated comp car. I don't even have a garage to work in and my apt is about 50yrds from my parking area.

Do things need to change, maybe. I have not been out there lately to see just what is needed. I think that the availability of items on the internet has killed off the local store. ( I am guilty of that too) Our local store has gone out of the car stereo business, focusing on home audio.
sorry if it was so long but had to vent, rant, whatever.

Tim

OK, I have to post on this.
I have been in usac since my first comp in 1997. I remember going to shows where there were 15 cars in my class. Heck, I went to a single pointer in KS that had over 120 total entries, 40 of them were SQ.
What I liked about show back then, was that if I was late, the show was already started. I don't think I have been to a show in 3 years that started before noon. I used not to mind that, but now, with kids, I can't sit around for hours.
Dollars are a big item also. Earlier in the post, it was said that we the competitors ruined the competitons. I agree to a point on this, and I buy from my local shop when I can, but I can't justify spending 400$ on subs, or 600$ on a deck when I can get them the same subs for 125$ and same deck for 250$ online. I can't blame the shop, they need to make a profit, but it is tough to blame the competitor, they have to survive also.

No one else may agree with this, this is just from my point of view, but I think that part of the reason numbers started to decline was that it got so tough to compete due to the extreme nature of some of the cars. I'm not saying that it was bad to have extreme cars, I thought they were great-I also seen a lot of competitors leave because time and time again, an superior sounding car lost to a car that had a high dollar install. if you wanted to win, you had to go over the top on the install, and have just a decent sounding system.(this is where the SPL and RTA had leveled the field).

Leaving on a good note, I am once again excited about the new rules. It places like cars together. If I don't want to compete against a pro car, a car built by someone like Todd or Chris, I just have to change my cards build. On the same token, I know that if I a pro is in my class, it is because our rides are built for the same class.

Just wait and see guys, I think SQ will be back, and back strong, but it won't happen overnight.

Tim,

Thanks for the shout out. IGGY is still setup as it was in 151-300. I have competed and did well (so far) in this era of no power classes. It's true IMO that if I was to update to more powerful amps I may gain more points in sq, but it will be more than just amps being updated when I do pull that trigger.

But the main problem with the decline of SQ was the dumbing down of SQ. Another problem that happened was there was a stranglehold on key classes by a few competitors. Yes, I may be one of them. And the dumbing down IMO was a bi product of top competitors making it hard for others to crack the top 5 of a class.

Then you had the trophy getters, cars and competitors that were in lower divisions where if the organizations had the balls to reclassify them they would have been moved to consumer and in some cases pro before they went to a regional or finals. The perfect example $20k installs that poped up all the time in rookie hurt the sport the most. Vehicles that were in their proper classes did little to harm this sport.

The thing that killed sq the quickest was the decline of the factory teams. Kicker for example had 10 or so main pro vehicles in both USAC and IASCA. But the fringe cars the pro guys brought in were the ones that populated consumer and rookie and were double the amount of the pro cars. So add to that list Rockford, MTX, Pioneer and you can easily see the "gutting" of sq.

Maybe sq is coming around full circle with the shop teams happening again. But for it to grow back to where we were back in the late '90's will take manufacturer support again. Maybe Arc, HAT,JBL and others will take the place of the four I mentioned.

Markey Dietrich

Been around way too long lol

I see a lot of people talking about competitors not supporting local dealers and their reason being that they can't spend that kind on money on equipment. Its easy to see both sides of this argument. I can't speak for other shops but If we get a customer that shows interest in competing or even just doing an above average install or something louder that your day to day sub packs we try to help them out the best we can. My favorite phrase is the more you spend the cheaper it gets. Help me to help you, if your going to spend a lot of money on your car and build something that is more pleasing to look at then I will help on my end by reducing cost of product or the install. On the very few occasions I get guys wanting to build an spl type set up I even offer to stay late on my own time not during shop hours to help them test and try different things to squeeze what they can out of what they have instead of just trying to sell bigger equipment. Someone is gonna be more likely to spend money when they see an increase in score without having to buy another $2000 amp week after week. I will try to do whatever I can to help out this sport even if it means discounting some product every now and then because in the long run it will help bring more customers in the door when you actually have cars out that are local for everyone to see and get excited them selves off of. We like to reward loyalty, the help me to help you thing can go a long way.

Cody, I try to support my local shop when they sold car audio. I get great deals there since I worked there years ago, ( 8+) If I need something they will special order it for me. I however do not like most of the current Equipment available so I shop on line, to find what I want.

Tim

SoundoffFocus wrote:

Cody, I try to support my local shop when they sold car audio. I get great deals there since I worked there years ago, ( 8+) If I need something they will special order it for me. I however do not like most of the current Equipment available so I shop on line, to find what I want.

Tim

That wasn't directed at any one person. I meant to the majority. I was also not saying its all the competitors fault. It takes to to make the world go round.