what qualities or sound experience should a sound q judge have?
robrice

Great ears and blinders!!! Lol

How do you know if someone has a great ears?
rob

You dont. The thing about SQ is it so so subjective. I m not sure if it could truely be measured like they do in spl. Things sound differently to different people. I guess if you have an understanding of how a sound field is supposed to be is a good start. Rob I am not sure there is a defenitive answer to that question.

do you think sound judges should have some kind of certification, especially for the big contests. maybe some kind of training.

Rob-Something is needed.

They should be an expert at the songs that are used to judge. They should have heard them on a reference standard system.

Training and certification is needed. Some sort of test is needed for certification.

In the last 2 to 3 weeks I have spoken with around 5 guys that used to compete.

Top 2 reasons they quit.
1. No money in it
2. Unqualified judges.

I for one would be happy to go through some other formal training outside of MSE's course.

I think that certification should be done, as for a reference system, I don't think that one is readily available for all people, but if needed, one should be made avail during the training. I agree on the need that the songs need to be memorized and that the judges need to be certified.

I have gone through Mark E's course, and will take it again as a refresher here in OKC. But aside from that, people have always told me i have a good ear. I have some seek me out to listen to their cars, but, I am not certified as of yet. I do wish to be if needed.

I know that in the other two major orgs their training is much more strengent than ours. But that doesn't mean that their judges are that much more qualified or better than ours.

just my .03 cents
.02 for the observation
.01 for the economy
--Joe

IMO either there needs to be something put together similar to what Mark does or maybe USACi needs to look into people that want to be judges must have to have attended Mark's seminar as a prerequisite.

He does provide a reference set-up.

I will be attending his OKC seminar in November.

Brian,

Part of the "certification process" through USACi is to attend Mark's seminar. It is a great starting point. Maybe if we bring it up with Mark to listen to the USACi songs on the genelec's so we can hear them on a true reference system. Just a thought

I can do free hearing tests to all judges to start.
Then do all the training you want.

J.

i agree with joe , marks class is a great start , but the judge is to have a good reference and memorized the cd . perhaps mark should do a class for just judges to learn the cd's being use and what to pay attention and everything a judge needs. i am sure a class like this can be done in 1 day . if something like this could be done judges could be closer in the judging procedures , better trained .

I have akso been to Mark's seminar and he is very good at teaching how to get good sound and he knows what good sound is. But he is also a competitor. Mark is a good friend and a very ethical person. When is he going to have time to teach or is it truely fair to have him doing the training?
Just a thought, not meant to inflame anybody.
rob

The best judges to me are the ones that not only can tell you something is wrong with a system, but also how to fix it.

So an easy test is Mark's thing with teh two EQ's in line. A good judge should be able to listen to the system with no eq. Have someone make some small changes, and that judge be able to pick out what changed and where it is centered. The person would also be able to vocalize what instruments in the music changed and how they changed.

Pick a percentage that they have to hit in. The ones that get it the dead closest are your finals judges. Widen out for regionals, and even wider for local shows (but still with some sense of correctness).

That will give you judges that not only know when something isn't right, but also have enough information to help competitors fix problems---which is HUGE for new comers.


Unfortunately, I think you would end up with very few judges. Most people know what they like when it comes to music and know when something isn't right---but actually fixing the problem is more of an art form.




Imaging--that's a bit harder to test. Depth being the hardest one. 15 judges will give you 15 different scores in depth. Same deal with ambiance. Those two sections of the scoresheet are the lottery when it comes to SQ judging. Your number either comes up or not. Never a good explanation to either.

Well put Andy.

If that is the case, I will gladly stand down as a SQ judge. I didn't do so hot on the EQ stage. I only know what sounds good to me. Besides, it is easier to be a SQ competitor than a competitor/judge.

Rob, you didn't flame anyone. I feel that Mark is just as strong in his convictions as he is in competition. I think that if he were to teach a course layed out like Ruperto mentioned, then it would be to truly benefit the quality of the judging. But I would be speaking for Mark, and I am not qualified to do that.

I'll step up and comment, being that I have judged sound and install at FInals...I'll jump up and down to tell you that I am more qualified at judging sound than install. LOL...

So...sound judging, I for one have been through Mark's class...it was a great class and I learned a few things and he had great literature at our disposal. He didn't however teach anyone in the class anything that in my opinion would make them "ready" to be a USACi Sound judge. He taught stuff that we as judges need to know though...so yes it's a great prerequisite. Is that all you need? No.

I went through judges training in the late 90s...actually Reggie taught me quite a bit...then my music background did the rest ( I have a minor in music...was also a music major for a couple of years). I learned from Goudy how to judge multiple cars and keep your head straight...hard to explain...but Pate and I were on the same plane of thought when we judged together in Tyler.

There are a few types of people to be leary of...one, someone that works in the industry does not necessarily have 'ears'. And two, someone with a Championship under their belt may have been paying or having someone else tune their car.

So, how do we find new judges? Keep the old judges happy, giving them what they need at the big shows...always put a new guy with them for the 2seat classes. voila...trained. The directors and mgmnt at USACi are the ones to keep up with the judging pool. IMO, competitors need to be out of this one. Just like what Rob said, it's hard for Mark to train a judge that will judge him eventually. Mark's not the type to steer someone by any means. But I've been judged by someone that said "you need to hear my car...that's how it should be done"...LMAO. (note to self...that's not a WF judge. LOL)

So, yes...I think there needs to be more in depth training. I for one think that all USAC judges need to be trained by a WF qualified judge. Then, WF judges need to have a brief refresher like the day before judging.
I don't think " I want to judge SQ" should immediately put someone in training. I as a competitor want to see someone that has some 'clout' judging at Finals. I want to see the guys with music backgrounds, proven ears, championship wins that THEY tuned, etc.

Well put..
Rob Rice

What a great an straight forward question. I myself was taught to judge SQ by James Feltenbuger many years ago, who I think was one of the very best at SQ judging. I judged at the 06 and 07 USACi finals, and I swore to myself i would not do it again because of of the lack of training the other judges had. Jsketoe said it very well when he talked about judges saying you need to hear there cars.(what a joke that is)

As a SQ judge my job is to judge the car as presented to me at that time with no preconceptions and then tell you what I listened to that was wright and wrong with that car. NOT TO TELL YOU HOW TO FIX IT. That is up to you!!!!

But after all that the short answer to your question is KNOWLEDGE, TRUST and a OPEN MIND.

I agree with Sketoe on this 100%.

Issue is there are judges running around that have no clue and this sets a bad precedence.

I have no clue what the answer is to fix this, inexperience.

We are going to get a reference system for the store first of all.
Our entire staff attended Mark"s class and we will practice what we learned. Hopefully by doing these things and listening to the test cds and practicing these techniques we will learn good sound.


We will learn and we will get better.
robrice

That is the best way to do things Rob. Congrats on making the stand to better train your staff and yourself. IMO, that speaks volumes to the professionalism that CarToys Tulsa shows!

This is a great topic..... And I have a real simple question.

How many of you guys know how to play a musical instrument? I dont mean mess around but truly know how to play an instrument and know how to tune that instrument to sound true?????

How many Sq judges do?????

So, if you do not know how to play the piano or the sax or any of the other instruments that make up the music of which we listen too,,,,, Do no get out of my car and score me any less than perfect on tonality....... now lets take it a step further..... just because you may know how to play the violin and know how to tune the violin to make beutiful music,,, does that mean the way the artist recoreded that particular song, that everything was perfectly tuned? absolutely not,,,, so unless you know how to play many many many instruments, and you were in the recording studio when that performance took place and you know that no-one re-mastered the original piece, then you cant tell me that a certain instrument didnt sound like it was supposed too, can you?

Now you can judge stage hieght and width and depth, and I cant argue much with you about that, unless you hav not cleaned out your ears in quite some time.....

So see this is a losing battle all together, unless you know what kind of sound the majority of the people walking around on planet earth like to hear, then you can get real close to at least having a sound in your car that is pleasing to most..... It takes alot of experience, going to alot of shows and listening to alot of DIFFERENT kinds of REFERENCE systems,,,,,, not just the GENELEC or something of the like.....

So lets at least start with having every sq judge take a hearing loss test..... Have a standard of which you have to score at least a certain percentile or better.... Then have a standard on how big or small the sq judge should be.... I know i know what your thinking,,, but we all know it as well.... and finally SQ judging should be done with whatever music the particular SQ judge wants to use... yep what ever he likes and is intement with,,,,,, it should be public knowledge posted on each orgs website, and you should be able to contact the SQ judge with any questions you have about his recordings of choice...

You can attend all of the classes you want, and you will aquire alot of great information and knowledge, and that is definately a great path to follow, but it is a long way from the solution....

nicely done Gary. I agree with you on most every point.

I have run sound for my brother's band for 10 years or so. I have also run sound at my church for the last 2 years ( 700 active members ) and I tune by ear both. I have tried to tune by RTA in the church, and what should sound good by the RTA, sounds nasty. Similarly in a car I would guess.

Am I qualified to be a SQ judge? So far, my size ( 6'1 300lbs ) most likely won't get the job done, the fact that my voice is my instrument ( studied Vocal Music Performance major with biology minor in college ) and how I tune it...no matter how well I think I have tuned it, I know it sounds nasty. (was never a great opera singer) Hence, no VMP graduation.

I agree completely as to what music the judge should have, unless the judge has to use the judging cd by the prospective Org.

If that is the case, then there should be "cliff notes" as to what is needed to be ascertained in the song in order to come across through the installation. Things like " you should hear the swirling, brushing of the snare during this jazz track as well as the airy breath through the microphone... " crap like that. Judges need to know the song inside and out, and if judges have a guideline as to what they should be listening for, maybe that will help them in judging a car the way the music plays.

I agree that knowledge and classes can teach only so much, and that experience goes a long way, but what is considered enough experience?

I have been in sq competition since the late '80s, but not in constant competition. Does that make me any better of a judge than someone that hypothetically competed in SPL for the last 10 years and now is an SQ supporter? I think it does.

First my hearing is most likely not screwed like an SPL competitor might be. Second I have been only SQ for the whole time. Experience wise, this should qualify me.

Jorge (aka Doiter) has offered to administer an auditory test to anyone who is interested in being a judge. THANK YOU JORGE! This is a step in the right direction for sure. If you don't pass this test, it should be a good indication that judging is not right for you.

Those that pass the test, should have to attend a workshop ( preferably free ) that will teach them what tonality, timbre, stage depth, width and other aspects of SQ judging before they can be allowed to judge any 1x much less a 2x show.

Those that have judged 2x shows, may be eligible to test for regional and 3x shows. Only the top judges can judge Finals and that is to the discretion of Ralph and Tim.

Insomnia plays a major part in this rambling. I hope I made at least a bit of sense.

Gary's spot on. I really feel that the judges training would be proper is a large room with some instrumentalists. It'd be cool to do for sure. Hard to do...but cool to do. How cool would it be to get a sax, violinist, piano, and percussionist together? I'm a percussionist (I've performed many different places for crowds up to 20-25K in venues, from football fields, clubs, the National Cathedral, the JF Kennedy Center in DC.) and could get my hands on a few cool items. It's just really hard to collaborate all of that...and a few of the things we'd need to hear IMO are expensive to buy if I can't borrow. But then again...it goes back to the room you are listening to these instruments in.
In a perfect world, we'd want to be judged by musicians/recording engineers/live performers. Most of those cats don't give a poop about what we do and imaging and staging. Some are so ingrained in their in-ear-monitors that they themselves may only know THEIR instrument. LOL...so...I dunno.

John, that was the part that I agreed with. It would be nice to have musicians perform the songs that we judge by. My sarcasm was placed squarely on the weight issue. The whole argument can go a different route as well. I am big, no doubts there, and my car may be tuned with me in it. Then when some medium sized judge sits in my car, it could image different due to the different mass in the car.

The minute you start discriminating people by their size, that can usher in a whole new set of complaints or issues.

To be truly fair, someone needs to come up with a computer program that measures all the variables that constitute a perfect sounding car. Until that happens, we have all sizes of judges and contestants. Let them compete/judge as they intend.

OMG, I agree with yall. But the size thing I think your going to have a problem with. No matter what the size of the individual I would think they would be consistant with the scores they hand out.
No? Yes?
robrice

I agree with you Rob on the size of a person should not matter as long as there scores are consistent. I know i have had some experiences with larger judges in my car, and one person comes to mind. We both have probably have been judged by this person in the past. he had to be at least 350 to 400 pounds. The first time he got in my car i have to admit i was a little scared, but when he was done I got the list of problems I already knew existed. That is all I can ask for.

As far as the rest of this I will agree with all of you judges need to be exposed to more live music, but in the end that is up to the judge to do. I know i have heard these same topics for years. Most of them will never happen. There is always going to be that very select few that truly care about what they do.

Size does matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If she is honest she'll tell ,you all that!!!!
lol ok Seriously,,,,I through in the size thing on purpose and for a reason. I went to school as a psycology major, hence the mind games I often play,,, I didnt finish school, but that's a whole different story.... Now everyone is saying that it shouldn't matter what your size is becuase as long as that person is fair and consistant than it doesnt matter...... Well if consistency is what you want, we need to all quit crying about qaulity of judges,,, a bad judge can be consistant... My 17 year old daughter can be consistant!!!! I have nothing against someone 300 pounds, Hell two months ago I weighed 276, diet has me at 246 today, But I can tell you this, if you are 5.5 foot tall and weight 125 pounds and have no hair, and you do know what a french viloa sounds like and you used your own recording room and you mastered the music and you stamped your own cd and you tuned your car to replicate what you absolutely know its supposed to sound like, and a big burly 6. foot tall 250 pound and have hair like a gorilla, I can assure you the car will sound different to that person..... So please do not look for things to take as offensive, I am stating facts... and if we ae going to address one issue we should face them all head on!

Now, its not as hard as you think to give a live performance to a set of judges.... I would bet a dollar you can contact almost any highschool band and get a live free performance out of them, this would be great. Go listen to the band in the gymnasium, record the concert, put it to dics. and use it as judging material. simple thought, give it some thought and wok out all the fine details, but it is do-able...

Now, discriminating against spl guys isnt fair either... I am pretty sure that everyone on this fourm has more hearing loss in the uppder octave's than they do in the lower!!!

Now guess what,, at the JBL labs in Northridge, we do know exactly what sounds great to 95 percnt of the people walking around on planet earth, alot of science, alot of tests, and alot of trained listeners has made this possible.... We have trained listeners,,, that can listen to a reference system, while you are making changes in the freq response and they can tell you what and where you are making changes, I have stepped through the test a couple times.. its amazing!

So what I am trying to say or ask is do we want consistency or do we wany accuracy.... consistency is easy to get,,,, accuracy is hard to get but with it comes consistency!

Valid Points Gary, most definately. And I know who you were referring to.

I really like the idea of the marching band, recording and using as a study guide or training tool.

I can probably get my brother's band to perform a live, acoustic set, off mikes, and I can use record them.

This is very do'able. Especially since my bassist has an upright bass too.

Gary you are wright about the way i used the word CONSISTENT. it should have been the word WRIGHT. my point about that post was that we should not assume that a person is not going to judge our car the wright way because of there size....

Now as far as getting bands to play for the judges before a show I am all for that, but i have herd ideas like this before and when it comes down to getting it done it never seems to happen....

As far as the fat girl that was to good.

well it is not to play before the show, but to record them when they are practicing or something. I think their type of music might be a bit heavy, but it could be used for SQ no doubt.

http://sleestakband.net/ Shameless plug. Bad recordings, but you can get the idea. There is so much that a mic on a mini cam can pick up...enjoy!