CompetitorCommittee n all please read 4OHM

I've had debates about this for years with many of you, mostly Jimbo...haha

Anywho for those that werent around here's what I think of this problem thats plagued us for years now.
If we abandon the current 4 ohm rating system we will eliminate most cheater amps and rid ourselves of the constant bickering but more importantly open the classes for crossover competitors and manufacturers who don't have low impedance amplifiers.
But, if we did that, there will just be other new ways of getting around the system.


Lets say we actually change from 4ohm rating system and go to "highest RMS rating". (in other words a MMats 3000.2, 3000.1, and 3000.05 would all be rated the same, 3000 watts. Regardless of the ohm load, it will be classified by the highest output the manufacturer gives it.)
Ok?, that got me an others thinkin...if we did that what would be stopping certain manufacturers from only rating their amps at 2 or 4 ohms when clearly they could go much lower...well?, nothing I guess so that posed a problem right there.


How about we pretend its the future and we actually did change to classifying amps by the highest RMS manufacturer's rating.
When all the sudden we realize we've got a problem.
Joe Shmoe is running the new
Doberman 500.1 that is rated at
500 watts@2ohm
and that is the only rating it has...but everybody knows the amp runs .25 ohm daily.
Sounds like we have a new problem right?

No matter what we do we'll have competitors and manufacturers trying to skirt the system. But I do feel getting rid of the current rating method is necessary even though we'll have problems like the one I described above. Don't worry there's a way to catch cheating companies.

K, lets say we're all getting screwed by this new Doberman 500.1 and we all know its doin thousands of watts at lower ohms, I know, Its bullsh!t and all we all wanna kick the azz of Doberman amps for only puting a 2 ohm rating on this amp....well no problems guys....we can use the sytem we already have in place without having to change a thing.
PROTEST.

How? simple, even though we would now be classifying amps by their highest published RMS rating, we can still use our 4ohm protest procedure.
Heres an excerpt from our current rule book,

Quote :

A car audio system’s total wattage shall be determined by the highest manufacturer rated output
divided by the proper number to ascertain the 4 ohm power output, or the manufacturer’s 4 ohm rating, whichever is higher

All we would have to do is protest the Doberman 500@2ohm amp, if it's within 30% of 250 watts at 4ohms then it passes. If it's over then we know the amp is BS and is gets re-rated.

Whats the point then? Either way we all run our amps well below the recommended impedance anyways so why not just call a spade a spade.

Honestly guys, I think USACi could bring in so much more revenue by changing to highest published RMS rating.
We'll get crossover members, new support from manu's who dont make low impedance amps, and it will once and for all stop all the cheater amp controversy.

And don't get me started on opening up the classes, I mean really open them up.....like 100,000+ classes, yeah........

I always like to read the debates, don't comment much, but there are already amps out there that if you went by there max rating would already be cheater amps, companies wouldnt even have to put them out for it to be a factor, they are already there.

Quote :

zacdavis
Advanced Contributor
Advanced Contributor
Age : 31
Joined : 28 Jun 2007
Posts : 438
PostSubject: Re: Poll DD Fri May 23, 2008 10:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post

Me to,
I'd like to see somethin close to
0-1000 /1amp
1000-5000 /2amp
5,000-15,000 /3amp
15,000-30,000/ 4amp
30,000-up/ no limit

not these actual number but somethin like that, open up the classes and rate amps by their highest rating.
A 1ohm 3000watt class D amp would be 3000 watts, simple.

This will also be awesome for spectators.
My vision for the the Super Mods is even bigger.
0-1000
1000-10,000
10,000-50,000
50,000-100,000
100,000-and up
THIS IS WHAT WE ACTUALLY PUT IN OUR CARS WHY NOT BOAST IT TO THE WORLD INSTEAD OF PRETENDING WE'RE ONLY RUNNING LESS.

How impressive does the 100,000watt and up class sound?
Rated like this it would attract more Drag guys to who're normally in the same class but here the guys with the disadvantage of having less power than others in their respective class will have a chance to be matched up more fairly, power to power.

Scott Owens had like 70+ 1501Punch amps, thats like 105,000 watts!!!!, everybody is going to come watch this class.
And for our sake, the guy who's normally in Scott's class in drag with less power won't have to worry about being matched up with guys who've got 3 and 4 times the power.

This is a win win win,

#1 The 4ohm rating problem is rectified once and for all.
#2 This will draw attention and more spectators.
#3 It will draw crossover competitors.
_________________

the only way to tell true power vs true power is to do it like another organization

lol i knew that was going to get brought up.

hey its true, if you want to get watt vs watt you have to clamp


so say if we did go to a max power rating, are we going to have 2 max power ratings? one rating for the stock classes, and one for the PS / mod classes?

good points Zac But my point is there are amps that should not have past certain 4 ohm ratings in the 1st place??? because of the way they are tested????

CHAD WE ARE TEAMATES BUT IF YOU WANT CLAMPED POWER TAKE THAT ASS TO MWSPL ALONG WITH THE REST OF THE PEOPLE ON HERE TRYING TO CHANGE USACI.

I LOVE TO SEE PEOPLE IN THE LANES ALL YEAR LONG NOT JUST FINALS.

IM THINKING THE REAL REASON FINALS IS SMALL IN ATTENDANCE IS THE TIME OF YEAR IT IS HELD LETS THINK ABOUT THIS 10 DAYS BEFORE THANKSGIVING, AND CHRISTAMS IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNOR THEN NEW YEARS.

IDE LIKE TO SEE FINALS IN SAY AUGUST MYSELF.

PEOPLE WITH BIG FAMILIES WILL OPT OUT OF FINALS DUE TO THE HOLIDAYS, AND RIGHTFULLY SO I DONT HAVE A BIG FAMILY AT ALL SO IT DOESNT AFFECT ME BESIDES THE FACT I DONT CELEBRATE HOLIDAYS

ohh i dont want clamped power, im just making ponts, even if me and you used the exact same amp, not same model, but i mean the exact same amp we would get diff power out of it, thats my point is all, that there is now real way to rate them, other than how we do, we use a bench and it uses the same factors in every test to give us a 4 ohm rating, what ohm load and voltage the competitor chooses to use is up to him, that's all im trying to say.

I SAID IT IN THE PAST WE NEED TO TEST AMPS IN A CAR ON THAT ELECTRICAL SYSTEM CAUSE ITS NOT ON A BENCH WITH CONSTANT POWER SO NO MATTER WHAT THEY GET ON THE BENCH WE MORE THAN LIKELY WONT GET IT IN THE CAR

sanman wrote:

I SAID IT IN THE PAST WE NEED TO TEST AMPS IN A CAR ON THAT ELECTRICAL SYSTEM CAUSE ITS NOT ON A BENCH WITH CONSTANT POWER SO NO MATTER WHAT THEY GET ON THE BENCH WE MORE THAN LIKELY WONT GET IT IN THE CAR

hmmm that's not the case?? i have seen and have used some Mean power supplies over 1000 amps to tap, the difference is resistor/coil load or reactive load, and that's just a start, most Labs use resistors/coil which is not real world

I want a pie. Rating

PUTTIN AN AMP ON A BENCH IN A COMPANY WHERE THERE IS VERY LITTLE VOLTAGE DROP IS NOT REALISTIC AT ALL.

What about putting pie on a bench

As long as we use a standard rating system for all amps that is fair. We cant use a different rating for one brand and another rating system for another. So if we are going to us the 4ohm rating as long as its used on all amps i don't have a problem

CORRECT THE AMPS THAT HAVE BEEN TESTED BY USACI IN THERE TESTING LABS ARE CMPANIES TRYING TO BE THE LEADERS IN THIS SPORT FOR THEY ARE ASKING USACI TO CERTIFY THERE AMPS SO THEY, AND THERE COMPETITORS ARE LEGIT. THIS IS THE STANDARD, AND THESE COMPANIES THAT HAVE DONE THIS ARE THE REASON THEY ARE AHEAD OF THE REST IN THE LANES.

WoW. I thought the only thing need changes was Street Beat and port wars.

KUMAR YOU KNOW HOW IT IS MAN PEOPLE WILL TRY TO CHANGE AS MUCH AS THEY CAN TO STRUCTURE THE WAY THEY WANT THINGS LOL TO BENEFIT THEM.

one standard rating is as fair as we can get. As far as dropping the ohm's on the amp any one can do it. How low can an amp go you have to do your home work an know what your buying

sanman wrote:

KUMAR YOU KNOW HOW IT IS MAN PEOPLE WILL TRY TO CHANGE AS MUCH AS THEY CAN TO STRUCTURE THE WAY THEY WANT THINGS LOL TO BENEFIT THEM.

That is what I am seeing.

Zac i cant believe you kept your old posts with your class structure... YOU CRZY ASSSS...


Your tha man bro

sanman wrote:

CORRECT THE AMPS THAT HAVE BEEN TESTED BY USACI IN THERE TESTING LABS ARE CMPANIES TRYING TO BE THE LEADERS IN THIS SPORT FOR THEY ARE ASKING USACI TO CERTIFY THERE AMPS SO THEY, AND THERE COMPETITORS ARE LEGIT. THIS IS THE STANDARD, AND THESE COMPANIES THAT HAVE DONE THIS ARE THE REASON THEY ARE AHEAD OF THE REST IN THE LANES.

You are correct. When Ralph uses the highest rating and then divides it down, it does not make sense.

If JL1000/1 was sent in to Ralph to be Usaci Certified, it would probably be rated at 1000 watts @ 4, 2, 1 ohm and placed in the respective class (601-1800) Usaci takes the highest rating a derives the 4 ohm rating. Why not leave it at max power????

Why does the JL1000/1 have to compete against lets say the 40.1??? It is rated at 900 @ 4 ohm. For sake of argument, lets say Usaci Certified that amp at 900 @ 4 ohm, and 3600 @ 1 ohm. Usaci take the highest rating and derives the 4 ohm rating. Why not leave it at max power????
Both JL and IA, along with many other manufacturers know what the amp is capable max power wise.

Right now in 601-1800:
1- JL1000/1 Estimated Max power: 1000 watts
2-IA40.1's Estimated Total Max power: 7200 watts

With a Max Power class: The idea is to allow ALL AMPS a fair chance to play, and to allow all manufacturers a chance to support Usaci.
Can you see why JL amps are not often used, if ever in Usaci????

The current system of rating amps is flawed and we need a change. Just like the majority of the US voted for Obama, "We need Change".
The Usaci rating system needs a change!!!!

Agreed Kevin, but I'm not with ya on the "Max" power, (as in dynamic),
Maybe I'm readin ya all wrong and by Max you mean "Max RMS"

And yes, the IA40 should be 3600watts and the JL 1000 watts. Rate'em as they are intended to run, not some irrelevant 4 ohm rating.

Why is a MMats 3000 watt amp rated at three hundred and some odd watts?, Doesnt make any sense at all.
Open these damn classes up, rate amps by the highest published RMS rating and go at it.

I'm tellin ya, 50k-100k class, or the 100K+ class, holy crap how fricken awesome would that sound to spectators?!!

On top of it we'll have crossover members from Drag not to mention new manufacturer support from companies that don't offer low impedance capable amplifiers.

It would sound awsome to spectators but would scare off a first year competitor. Think about it.... I need 50,000 watts to compete in that class? How much is that going to cost? that customer just walked out the door. I see what you mean Zac, but we need to focus on the dealer and making it intresting for the new competitor with out breaking his wallet.

Do people even actually read the crap I write? haha

Quote :

zacdavis
0-1000 /1amp
1000-5000 /2amp
5,000-15,000 /3amp
15,000-30,000/ 4amp
30,000-up/ no limit

not these actual number but somethin like that, open up the classes and rate amps by their highest rating.
A 1ohm 3000watt class D amp would be 3000 watts, simple.

This will also be awesome for spectators.
My vision for the the Super Mods is even bigger.
0-1000
1000-10,000
10,000-50,000
50,000-100,000
100,000-and up

zacdavis wrote:

Quote :

zacdavis
Advanced Contributor
Advanced Contributor
Age : 31
Joined : 28 Jun 2007
Posts : 438
PostSubject: Re: Poll DD Fri May 23, 2008 10:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post

Me to,
I'd like to see somethin close to
0-1000 /1amp
1000-5000 /2amp
5,000-15,000 /3amp
15,000-30,000/ 4amp
30,000-up/ no limit

not these actual number but somethin like that, open up the classes and rate amps by their highest rating.
A 1ohm 3000watt class D amp would be 3000 watts, simple.

This will also be awesome for spectators.
My vision for the the Super Mods is even bigger.
0-1000
1000-10,000
10,000-50,000
50,000-100,000
100,000-and up
THIS IS WHAT WE ACTUALLY PUT IN OUR CARS WHY NOT BOAST IT TO THE WORLD INSTEAD OF PRETENDING WE'RE ONLY RUNNING LESS.

How impressive does the 100,000watt and up class sound?
Rated like this it would attract more Drag guys to who're normally in the same class but here the guys with the disadvantage of having less power than others in their respective class will have a chance to be matched up more fairly, power to power.

Scott Owens had like 70+ 1501Punch amps, thats like 105,000 watts!!!!, everybody is going to come watch this class.
And for our sake, the guy who's normally in Scott's class in drag with less power won't have to worry about being matched up with guys who've got 3 and 4 times the power.

This is a win win win,

#1 The 4ohm rating problem is rectified once and for all.
#2 This will draw attention and more spectators.
#3 It will draw crossover competitors.
_________________

It does not help the dealers, it will not bring in new competitors and I did read what you wrote.... I read that 50k-100k class would sound awsome to COMPETITORS. But this does not help the DEALER who paid for the show and the competitor who just sees a 170+ score with a whole bunch of amps ,batteries and speakers.

Ok your not going to get it.
You have no grasp of reality!
Soooo?.......your saying it helps you as a dealer, and your customers coming in the door, to have a $1000plus Cactus/DD/Treo/ect cheater amp to be competitive otherwise forget competing in usaci? That helps you ey?

Ya know what maybe I'm not explaining this well enough so I'll take the blame on being dumb here....

I'll try again.....by having our classes rated by the highest RMS output you'll be able to sell/offer your customers MORE amps, not just ones that go down to a quarter ohm that have bs ratings that cost a zillion dollars.

Your JL customers will run their 2 1000/1's against 1 M3 instead of 1 1000/1 against 4 M3's.....come on man, you gotta be gettin what I'm sayin here?

RXZILLA wrote:

It does not help the dealers, it will not bring in new competitors and I did read what you wrote.... I read that 50k-100k class would sound awsome to COMPETITORS. But this does not help the DEALER who paid for the show and the competitor who just sees a 170+ score with a whole bunch of amps ,batteries and speakers.

And btw, who the hell is gonna do 170+ in a 0-1000 watt or 1000-5000 watt class?

Remember, this would be if we're going with highest RMS rating,
in other words,
the Cactus600.1 would be 3000watts,
the DD M3 would be 2600,
the MMats 3000.05/.1/.2 would be......yeeeeup, 3000 watts.

Just to play devils advicate.... Which amp will do more power and be competitve.

Competitor A buys a M3 ($1200.00) thats does 2600 watts. Pulls out a 156

Competitor B buys a Power Acoustik 3500.1($299.00) and does a 150. How as a dealer would you explain this to a new competitor?


I get what your saying, but your thinking like a vetran instead of a newbie.

Thank god some real discussion goin on...ok I can answer that but let me say sorry first for being a jerk in the last post, I'm kinda tired and grumpy.

Here's what I would say-
"The DD amp is capable of doing higher scores because the build quality an design of the amp allows it to run beyond it's recommended level for short burps.
So even though both amps are rated at 1ohm, the DD will perform for a few seconds below that. The lower the ohm, the more power an amp puts out. Because this amp is built with higher standards it costs more than the PowerAcoustik."

But now in the real world, honestly bro, that PA3000 will do danm near as much as that M3, maybe not at .25 ohm or .5 but at 1 you'll be surprised.

I did a 156.7 with 2 of those amps running at 1 ohm each on 4 Audiopipe 12's in a rex. Don't count out the off brand stuff just yet.
Have some faith, this is where your business's reputation will shine.
Imagine, your customer shows up to an event and blows away someones system that spent thousands more and tells them..."yeah, team ace's built my car"...
(btw, they go much lower than 1ohm and they make a ton of power, ask Matt Sibley, he'll tell ya )

I'm not thinking like a veteran or a newbie, I'm thinking like a business man.