Why is it accepted in one venue and not accepted here?

Ok,

Be prepared for a long post. I am a car fanatic. I watch all the "car shows" on the "car networks" like Speed TV and on weekends like Spike TV's Power Block and even CMT for Trick my Truck to satisfy my "Okie-redneck fever". I also watch the shows that feature High-dollar transformations from old poopy-dust cars to outstanding show rods from buiders like Chip Foose and Hot Rods by Boyd. I even catch the Unique Whips at times.

What gets me is the mentality of the fanatics between so call "Car" guys. Now before I get anyone's panties in a wad...hear me out. The problem with car guys is that we have two main mentalities.

FIRST:
We have the Do-it-yourself-shade-tree-mechanic-installers out there that think that the only way to do it right, is to do it yourself. That mentality is admirable. We as enthusiasts take pride in our rides and when we install our systems or restore our rides, we feel just that much more prideful of our rides. Our meticulous precision, our efforts to maintain the integrity of the design, to capture the passion of the build..these things make up the joy of executing the buildup yourself worth while.

SECOND:
We have the enthusiast who doesn't have the mechanical or electrical knowledge to build this dream they have in their heads, but they have the financial capability to attain the goal just the same. They do their research to find the best install shop or best restore shop that has been known to bring home trophies, world championships, best of shows, and approach the sport with a "money-is-no-object" mentality. The design they come up with their installer/project manager/designer is down to every nut and bolt, every picture taken, every aspect of the build documented.

Both of these types of enthusiasts know that to compete, you must have accurate documentation. Both do the legwork, capture the essence of the build and place it in a book that the judges can read or in a presentation that the judges can see and hear.

Why is there such animosity between us?

At the Concours de Elegance at Pebble Beach, very few of the cars there are actually fully restored by their owners. They are meticulously rebuilt by shops specializing in restorations of those particular models, or brands or makers. Yet you will never, ever witness the kind of passion for the automobile that this show has, outside of Pebble Beach. It truly is a must see event.

Why would I bring up this? How many of Jay Leno's cars does he actually build? None. He has others build them for him. How many of Chip Foose's cars does he actually build..by himself, none, he has a whole team of fabricators that work with him.

I applaud the people on this website and in the sport of car audio that actually can build national championship winning car audio systems by themselves. That is truly an amazing thing and it should be applauded. You have done one incredible feat of ingenuity. But when you hear that someone else has paid to have their install done, don't discount their passion for the sport as being any less than yours. You don't know how much time they put into researching the speakers, the amplifiers, the charging system, the subwoofers, the install crew, the vehicle...you never know what they have done by "buying their trophy" to attain the same accolade you attained.


just so you know, I did not compete this season, nor do I currently have one installed in my ride.

What did i miss? Not arguing with ya ,but i must have missed an arguement....

i think hes talkin about the poop kasey was catchin about payin to have his stuff done for him

Nope, I am not starting poop, nor am I stirring the pot. I am just asking a simple question.

Why is it that in the world of car audio, one that has his system built and wins with it is "less of a competitor" than the one that built the system himself?

In the rest of the automotive world, there aren't any hard feelings one way or the other. Everyone appreciates each other's ride, whether they put it together or not.

My last system was "store bought", but I was the first to proclaim who built it, what powered it, what speakers were in it, but on top of that, I DESIGNED IT. I played an intricate part of the install in that I knew exactly where I wanted the speakers placed, I did the research, I did the math to dial in the best sound stage, yet I did not turn one wrench, nor did I cut one board or smooth one edge. Yet still in the eyes of some of the other competitors that I came across, I was under them because I had a shop do the install.

I am not bitter. I will still have a shop, rather one particular installer work his magic on my car, and I will still have my input on the design.

Will I have physically have built the car, if you talk about sweating, getting sawdust in my eyes, and inhaling fumes, probably not, but, mentally I will have as much invested as my installer. Together we will build this car, and if I win next year, We will stand up on that podium together. If he can't be there, He will be mentioned. Cause I couldn't have done it without him.

My truck was built by myself with the help of our lead installer. I did all of the wiring and he did all of the fabrication. But I do not hold any animosity toward the guys that had a shop do the work. Heck I work at a shop or I wouldn't have even tried to tackle this thing half on my own.

Jimbo, I don't know for sure but this thread may have something to do with the posts made about Gary Biggs old car coming back into the lanes with a new owner or Mickey claiming to have built a truck for Intermidiate this year. Either way it doesn't bother me at all. Sure I take great pride with how my truck performs and scores because it came out of our little unknown store in our little unknown town. It's not the best out there but I think it's one of the best! And I (we) did it.

Now I'm sure I could take my truck to Gary and let him rework the install and then ship it out to Atlanta and let Jeff Smith rework the tune. but that would leave me with no daily driver And besides that I couldn't say "I did that".

But I see the point here and I wish the classing structure was better though I don't really have any suggestions on improving it at this point. We had a discussion at our shop awhile back about some of this. One of my boss's was saying he didn't see anyway that Gary's old regal should ever compete in any class other than expert. (because after all the car is what it is. Gary's Regal) My other boss argued the fact that it's the competitor and not the car that enters into a class. And that the new owner may not have the knowledege about the car that he would need to have in order to present the car correctly or maintain the tune on it. I can kind of see both sides here and don't know what to suggest. As many rules and regulations as we put into place I think there will always be someone show up that we may feel has an unfair advantage. We shouldn't let that upset us too much. Suck it up and try try again.

After all me and my little no name truck have done pretty well over the last 3 years of competition. Every time I get beat by a vehicle with "names" behind it I just think to myself just keep pluggin away John. Someday people may bicker over a vehicle that John Roberts built for a competitor/customer. Ahh...I'll finally be able to bask in the bitching

Peace out guys. I gotta get my tune on for Jimbo's show

OnYrMrk, I was busy typing my reply when your last post came up. I find that I have to agree with you in your situation.

wow a new thread!

john let that other one die.

now about what is said here.

in any type of competition when competitors see each other for the first time they will immediately go on the offensive.

if you built it yourself they'll say " you should be pro"
if you had it built then they'll say "o that should be in a higher class"

fact is once they get to know you most of that will go away and if they don't get over it they will go away.

don't let the things others say ever discourage you from competing. use there negative comments as fuel to "smash them into the dirt".

most of the time if you get beat it is because you thought your system was good enough when it is never good enough thats why we compete.

i don't know if a car can be perfect but i have never heard it.
heck sometimes i don't even know if i know what perfect is.
so it is an unobtainable goal! therefore we can never quit trying to make it better.
you only win until someone beats you.
i personally didn't like the idea of people sitting out a year. someone should step up and build a car that can beat them or they are the best. i don't what to win a riged fight. where is the glory.

anyway you build it or you buy it you won't win unless everyone in the process knows what it takes and is willing to go the distance to win.

if people say that so and so spent all that money and i can't afford that then they can compete in Q . but you might notice the the winners of Q were also the winners in the reg class.
so i guess those competitors were willing to do whatever it took to win and that is a true competitor.

like they say go big or go home.

Crush wrote:

wow a new thread!

john let that other one die.

now about what is said here.

in any type of competition when competitors see each other for the first time they will immediately go on the offensive.

if you built it yourself they'll say " you should be pro"
if you had it built then they'll say "o that should be in a higher class"

fact is once they get to know you most of that will go away and if they don't get over it they will go away.

don't let the things others say ever discourage you from competing. use there negative comments as fuel to "smash them into the dirt".

most of the time if you get beat it is because you thought your system was good enough when it is never good enough thats why we compete.

i don't know if a car can be perfect but i have never heard it.
heck sometimes i don't even know if i know what perfect is.
so it is an unobtainable goal! therefore we can never quit trying to make it better.
you only win until someone beats you.
i personally didn't like the idea of people sitting out a year. someone should step up and build a car that can beat them or they are the best. i don't what to win a riged fight. where is the glory.

anyway you build it or you buy it you won't win unless everyone in the process knows what it takes and is willing to go the distance to win.

if people say that so and so spent all that money and i can't afford that then they can compete in Q . but you might notice the the winners of Q were also the winners in the reg class.
so i guess those competitors were willing to do whatever it took to win and that is a true competitor.

like they say go big or go home.

Well spoken Crush.

Good words Crush.

i think sq is gaining popularity again and usac should come up with few new classes ,it would be fun for example " self installer ,beginner,int,pro,and expert"

We need new classes like we need a bullett in the head...LOL...but if the the turnout steps back up, I could totally see power classes coming back.

I really don't understand this post either... what are you trying to get at?

ONYORMARK DID SOMEONE GIVE SOMEONE SHIZZZZNIT OVER HAVING A CAR BUILT FOR THEM.. I THINK THIS IS WHAT IM GETTING FROM IT AND FROM JOHN ROBERTS ( bye the way is one hell of an installer) ...

I SAY BUILD IT OR HAVE IT BUILT IN SQ ITS OKAY... IN SPL I THINK ITS GAY JUST TO BYE A WINNER .. BUT SQ IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT AND IS AN OPINION SO THEREFORE I THINK IT IS FINE. IN SQ. INCASE I DIDN'T SAY THAT ALREADY...LOL

I am totally confused........He was going to have me build a car for him, but some stuff came up. I build cars for guys all the time. I put a lot more work in than what the customer pays for (usually double). There is nothing wrong with building your own car or having an installer build it for you. Take your pick......if you want to win put in the wrench time. You can either work your a s s off and earn the money to pay the installer to build/tune it, or build it yourself. Either is admirable in my book.

I agree with Chris.
Sure Jan and I have a lot of pride that we did 95% of the work on our car. But we will be the first ones to say it would not be what it is without the help from guys like Nick Wingate for the tuning, speaker placement, etc.
But at the same time, anyone who doesn't have the skills/tools/time to build their own car but is willing to put in the money/time to help design, pick equipment, set standards and expectations for the installer, etc., deserves great respect.
I sometimes question those that buy an already winning car, or pay to have one built and don't have anything to do with the install. But, for those people, their scores will reflect that they have poor system knowledge, and many times they don't last long in the sport. I feel bad for these folks because they could just go off and buy a bunch of 7' trophies for the $5k, $10k, $50k that they invested in a car/system if that's all they wanted in the first place.
For those out there who choose to pay to have a car built, make sure to do your research on the shop/installer, be active in the design process, require tons of installation documentation and pics, and then you will understand your car & system and earn the respect of other competitors.

I just wanted to back up what Monte posted.

Let's face it, this industry wouldn't exist if it were a bunch of do-it-your-selfers...shops wouldn't survive and the bad pooter installers out there would be out of work. Plain and simple.

The issue I have is the so called 'credit card installs' where the owner just drops the car off, hands over the CC then walks out for 6 months...to never have a clue about what's going on. To not be involved in the design, the equipment decisions, etc. I think this is where many people have the issue.

Foose and Lenno don't do the build themselves, but they are actively involved in the process. They have laid out their expectations, their level of standards, and check in on the builds on a regular basis. They are involved heavily in those regards. When the winner of the Riddler is picked for the custom hot rods out there for instance...let's say Foose who has won it a few times over the past few years, you never hear about who actually owns the car...you hear that Foose won the award because he built the car and dedicated himself to it. Now, would that build have been possible if someone hadn't of stepped up and spent the money to fund it? Probably not.

I think part of the difference between the two schools of thought is that in this sport, many times the installer is rarely given due credit. They deserve just as much credit as the owner of the vehicle, but it's just not like that in this sport, unlike the other car events that have been mentioned. I think that because of that, some animosity has grown.

I'm seeing a lot of good points here. I want to let you guys know that I'm not against someone paying a shop to do their install but rather, that I get a little extra satisfaction out of knowing I built it when the truck scores well. I'd be out of a job if we didn't have customers to install for.

I agree with Jan on the credit card installs. It only hurts them in the long run. Even the folks that pay top dollar for their install should be in on design and keep up with all of the stages of install so that they have half a clue what it is that they have when it's finished.

I don't know if any of us have answered the original question in this thread but it has been an interesting conversation none the less.

Jimbo and Chris, I think you guys are not understanding where I am coming from.

This post did not come from any discussion I have had recently with anyone person on any forum or at any show. I happened to be watching a promo for the Barret/Jackson Classic Car Auction in Scottsdale next month and then it dawned on me. They were talking about guys that have their cars updated by multiple shops, one shop does the restoration of the car, another shop does the paint, another does the wheels and tires, another does the system, and then they say the car is "owned by...." and this guy goes about what he did to make it "his own" and he is respected for what he did.

In the car audio world, hypothetically, Chris, if you did do the work for me, and I just handed the car to you, and walked away, without making the trip each weekend to see how things are going, and then took delivery on the car, put a bobbing head hula girl on the dashboard and that was my contribution...and I called it mine, I would expect all hell to break loose on me and call me a poser.

But, if I did make the trip, to see how things were going, document the progression of the install, discuss with you speaker placement, and overall execution until finished...I would exclaim that this was a joint effort, something that we worked on together.

Now most people in our circle of friends, or the competitors that know us, or are aware of our integrity, would have no problem with that. But from the aspect of others who are hell bent for the "do it yourself or go home" mentality, they would probably ask you why you let me go on like that, and bad mouth me behind my back. They don't respect the general "love for the sport" that some of us have.

This is not an attack on anyone's integrity, and it has nothing to do with Gary's car competing again. I know one thing. I took my car to a show last year, won that show, then brought it home that night. My son wanted to take his girlfriend out in it later that night. I thought what the heck, it isn't like it is going to really be all that bad. I WAS WRONG!

It is quite amazing what one person that knows about sound quality setups can do to make his car sound good, and quite the opposite when a noob takes a good sounding car and tries to make it his own.

Again, this was a hypothetical observation. I have been seeing this for many years and it just struck me as funny when I saw this guy featuring his 1970 246 GT Dino Ferrari.

Guy was a bit of a doofus, not the type of guy holding the keys to a $200K Vintage Ferrari. But, after listening to his discussion with the host, he was clearly the owner. And he clearly had a hand in the restoration of the car, but probably didn't turn a wrench to it.

I did not want this discussion to offend anyone. Certainly not Chris, Jimbo or Rick, three people I respect most in this sport.

Jan and Monte, I apologize for any false impressions this may have caused you to have about myself. It was not my intention.

Just remember that although we have differences that make use uniquely individual, we share a common interest - promoting this sport further. And our first step could be to welcome anyone who wants to join the social fraternity (or sorority) called Car Audio. Whether they bought a store-built show car, a previous winner, or built it themselves to exacting specs, they should be treated with the same courtesy as the doofus with the Ferrari, to be treated...as an Enthusiast.

Ahh...Now I see.

Wow........what a post.....I would think the hula girl thing would be a good addition....and I would not call you a poser.

Yeah my retarded asss even gets it now....LOL I see the light now... Man i really was confused to what in the hell you were talking about.

i have both types of customers

for the most part the customers that want to compete in sq are more into the build

customers that want a car show winner only want to know if it is done yet.

for a competitor to do well they must understand the system and the installation.

90% of our installs are car show types getting a person into competing is hard most people don't have the dedication it takes.

in other words it is hard to compete when there are no shows.
people get discuraged and give up.

i say let anyone compete that wants to - the more the merrier

Sorry guys, I have been in quite the mood lately. Also, I wanted to wish all of you the very best in Happiest Holidays this season! Congrats to all who braved the weather to make Jimbo's show, and congrats to all who won or placed. Chris and Jimbo, John, good talking to you guys.

For me it is trust. I got burned years ago when I had an alarm installed by a "reputable" shop in 93. Because I didn't have the time or place to do it. After the alarm failed at a show. I decided to swap it. I dug into the old one to see if I could get it working enough till the next weekend to get my new one installed. Every wire in that install was wraped and taped even the starter kill. Then and there I made the decision that unless I know the installers work and trust it. No one does any work on my vehicles but me.

I think what the problem in car audio is and I have seen it for years. the Check book amateur some one who just writes the check. but doesn't know anything about their system. He know what is in the presentation but that is it, and in the event that something goes wrong he hasn't a clue on how to fix it. Grant it some people just don't have the knowledge to do installs. but some work closely with the installer to learn what went into the install.

Years ago Car stereo review did a article on what it took to win the finals. it was X products and $20,000. I how ever won at the finals for much less.

Tim