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 Caps Assistance

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Upzaw2000
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PostSubject: Caps Assistance   Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:20 pm

First topic message reminder :




Did you guys do this? LOL


Trying out some caps. Wanted to get some assistance on really how to use them safely.

On a 12 and 16v system...

On the 12v are you doing 6 2.2v caps = 13.2v or what is the end voltage to go by. Dont want to over charge or under charge and have issues.
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muriloalvares
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:14 pm

No one is saying that a battery = ultra cap.

What I'm saying is that a vehicle running ultracaps on a 2, 4, 6, etc # of batteries class goes AGAINST the original battery limitation concept.

These things were designed to REPLACE batteries, not to filter and smooth out voltage.
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:16 pm

Comparisons

Supercapacitors have several disadvantages and advantages relative to batteries:

[edit] Disadvantages
The amount of energy stored per unit weight is generally lower than that of an electrochemical battery (35 Wh/kg for a standard ultracapacitor, although 85 W.h/kg has been achieved in the lab[4] as of 2010 compared to 3040 Wh/kg for a lead acid battery, 100-250 Wh/kg for a lithium-ion battery and about 0.1% of the volumetric energy density of gasoline.
Has the highest dielectric absorption of any type of capacitor.
High self-discharge the rate is considerably higher than that of an electrochemical battery.
Low maximum voltage series connections are needed to obtain higher voltages, and voltage balancing may be required.
Unlike practical batteries, the voltage across any capacitor, including EDLCs, drops significantly as it discharges. Effective storage and recovery of energy requires complex electronic control and switching equipment, with consequent energy loss. A detailed paper on a multi-voltage 5.3 W EDLC power supply for medical equipment discusses design principles in detail. It uses a total of 55 F of capacitance, charges in about 150 seconds, and runs for about 60 seconds. The circuit uses switch-mode voltage regulators followed by linear regulators for clean and stable power, reducing efficiency to about 70%. The authors discuss the types of switching regulator available, buck, boost, and buck-boost, and conclude that for the widely varying voltage across an EDLC buck-boost is best, boost second-best, and buck unsuitable.[13]
Very low internal resistance allows extremely rapid discharge when shorted, resulting in a spark hazard similar to any other capacitor of similar voltage and capacitance (generally much higher than electrochemical cells).

[edit] Advantages
Long life, with little degradation over hundreds of thousands of charge cycles. Due to the capacitor's high number of charge-discharge cycles (millions or more compared to 200 to 1000 for most commercially available rechargeable batteries) it will last for the entire lifetime of most devices, which makes the device environmentally friendly. Rechargeable batteries wear out typically over a few years, and their highly reactive chemical electrolytes present a disposal and safety hazard. Battery lifetime can be optimised by charging only under favorable conditions, at an ideal rate and, for some chemistries, as infrequently as possible. EDLCs can help in conjunction with batteries by acting as a charge conditioner, storing energy from other sources for load balancing purposes and then using any excess energy to charge the batteries at a suitable time.
Low cost per cycle
Good reversibility
Very high rates of charge and discharge.
Extremely low internal resistance (ESR) and consequent high cycle efficiency (95% or more) and extremely low heating levels
High output power
High specific power. According to ITS (Institute of Transportation Studies, Davis, California) test results, the specific power of electric double-layer capacitors can exceed 6 kW/kg at 95% efficiency[14]
Improved safety, no corrosive electrolyte and low toxicity of materials.
Simple charge methodsno full-charge detection is needed; no danger of overcharging.
When used in conjunction with rechargeable batteries, in some applications the EDLC can supply energy for a short time, reducing battery cycling duty and extending life
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:17 pm

sanman wrote:

we have alot of pissed off peiople because someone ficured out how to, and what caps to run to ghet this done.

Oh that is a NO-BRAINER, I spent countless hours on a engineering lab and came with this recipe:

Buy as many ultracaps as you possibly can, the more you have the louder you get.
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:18 pm

a cheaper smaller easier way to have voltage on a moments notice is not a battery because caps still need to be charged, and they do not have the ability to rebound voltage due to the lack of lead plates.
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:19 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:21 pm

"As of today, the revolutionary ultracapacitors are not the alternative to traditional batteries, but they serve as replacement when batteries do not meet specific application needs. With the fast changing technology upgrades in ultracapacitor manufacturing, ultracapacitors will definitely replace batteries in all applications in the near future."

http://electronicsbus.com/batteries-vs-edlc-ultracapacitor-supercapacitor/
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:24 pm

they cant replace battery you can disharge a battery without killing a cell and it will rebound

a cap has no rebounding ability this means it has no lead acid plates


you can stop the double talk man it aint happenin with me lol
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:29 pm

sanman wrote:
they cant replace battery you can disharge a battery without killing a cell and it will rebound

a cap has no rebounding ability this means it has no lead acid plates


you can stop the double talk man it aint happenin with me lol

What lead acid plate has anything to do with the definition of a battery? Lead-acid battery is only one type of battery.

I'm not trying to get you to agree with me, that would be impossible. There are plenty examples of the incompatibly between logic x belief.
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:33 pm

a battery is desiogned to be charged, and hold a charge, and has thw abiility to rebound voltage

(pay attention to what i just wrote since it seems to be lacking in your ability to remember)


a cap does not rebound voltage but has to be physically charged.

there is your logic and belief
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:42 pm

An Ultracap will work as a replacement for a battery if the application is suitable.

That means this: if you want to light a 10W bulb for 20h, get a battery. If all you need is a 2 second burp, choose the Ultracap.

But all that we already know, what I don't know (and I'm curious) is: do you really know what is going on with the ultracap thing or are you genuinely oblivious?
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:53 pm

muriloalvares wrote:
An Ultracap will work as a replacement for a battery if the application is suitable.

That means this: if you want to light a 10W bulb for 20h, get a battery. If all you need is a 2 second burp, choose the Ultracap.

But all that we already know, what I don't know (and I'm curious) is: do you really know what is going on with the ultracap thing or are you genuinely oblivious?
Lmao. He knows about and is using caps. You are just willing to keep typing so is he!
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:02 pm

nope i dont know

the cap is like a tank of water waiting to be used, and has no more to offer once used up.

the battery is like the water faucet always ready to use with more to give


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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:13 pm

Indeed, now think about this.

Each cap is a bucket of water.

You have 10 of those, full.

You also have a 1" faucet.

The goal is to fill up a child's swimming pool in 30 seconds. The more water you put in, the louder your score is.



You see, back in days when they created the rules there were no ultracaps (devices created to replace batteries in most applications). They wanted to classify competitors by the amount of power they dump, so they created your 2, 4, 6 etc battery classes.

By using ultracaps you go against this, as a vehicle in the 2 battery class might as well have 2x the power of the next one in the 6 battery class.

You can go on and on but it won't change the fact that this is just a way to circumvent the class limitation (number of batteries). One example, Ultracaps are now replacing the additional battery in Diesel trucks (for cranking purposes).



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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:15 pm

But all this is not for you sanman, I'm typing to encourage a rule change (in case you guys want the org to grow bigger in number of competitors). Maybe just remove the battery limitation since the caps are more expensive to buy compared to batteries?
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:20 pm

no they had hawker cells (caps)

im not a young guy that hasnt been in this a whie Murillo

battery limitations are also only a few years old like what 3 now so that back in day day comment needs to go back as far as you thought it was and get lost.


i have been in usaci since 2003 man i have seen alot of changes
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:21 pm

murilo, i wont argue with you on which one is stronger, it was brought to the rules and ethics commitee in 2007 and they didnt do anything about it, they have been run in the usaci lanes at finals ever since. only until recently have so many competitors used them though.

it has been discussed with ralph in small talk a few times sense, and in his opinion, they aren't worth it. (hey everyone is entitled to an opinion right?)

in a recap by years that i know of

2007 2
2008 1
2009 1
2010 2
2011 6+
2012 10+

as far a being a battery replacement, i dont agree with that. if you use it everyday, then yes, it can. but if your like me and you let your car sit for months after finals, then no. This last spring my truck started just fine with the battery, but my caps were down to 4volts, doubtful it would have started on the caps.

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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:22 pm

im so glad you think you know whats better for usaci, and in conjunction with the other guys that want to see major changes yall could start your own org to make and or implement changes in and see how it works.


so i think we need changes ypu, but since im not the man reposnsible for all them chages to either succeed or fail i think i will just stick to competing because it wont be me in the end that has to explain to people why we failed.
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:30 pm

kickercrx wrote:
murilo, i wont argue with you on which one is stronger, it was brought to the rules and ethics commitee in 2007 and they didnt do anything about it, they have been run in the usaci lanes at finals ever since. only until recently have so many competitors used them though.

it has been discussed with ralph in small talk a few times sense, and in his opinion, they aren't worth it. (hey everyone is entitled to an opinion right?)

in a recap by years that i know of

2007 2
2008 1
2009 1
2010 2
2011 6+
2012 10+

as far a being a battery replacement, i dont agree with that. if you use it everyday, then yes, it can. but if your like me and you let your car sit for months after finals, then no. This last spring my truck started just fine with the battery, but my caps were down to 4volts, doubtful it would have started on the caps.



It is a battery replacement when you need instant power for a couple seconds (SPL competitions fit). You can't replace the battery if you wan't to store energy for a long period of time, but it will do better than a battery on a short period of time. It is more efficient than a battery as well (around 84% against 70%).

They are not worth it only on the unlimited battery class (and of course, if you have the extra room for batteries), as the battery cost (on $ per Wh) is still lower, BUT provided you have the funds you can have the same available power as a unlimited battery vehicle (or even more, it is more efficient!) on a 2 battery class. Which is ABSURD.

So if there won't be any rule change here is is: who doesn't use ultracaps are in serious disadvantage. If whoever is reading this plan to compete on any of these 2, 4 batteries etc hurry up and buy as many ultracaps as you can.
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:38 pm

its a capacitor used for short periods of time

main key word is capacitor


keep on reaching man bottom line is it is still a capacitor


you have absolutely no interest on this topic at alle xcpet you was asked to come over and make a post in the hopes that you could persuade a ruling because your a manufacturor. Yah i read that posts on caco man.
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:40 pm

You're 100% correct! For burp classes, caps offer a huge advantage vs. batteries. Take the energy output and divide by 5 seconds instead of 30... and you get 6kW per large module.

My chief reason for throwing some numbers up, was to show that it's equally feasible to run caps in street beat if you've got the cash.

With regard to the legality of caps, it's only a matter of time until the Bald Bandit realizes that the rules are being circumvented. Set some records before then!

@ Chad - Sorry to say, but a Battery = Capacitor + slow chemical reaction. Both have an internal resistance and capacitance. Batteries are high capacitance and high internal resistance. The primary difference is discharge rate. The chemical reaction take time and is temperature dependent. When the battery sees a low load impedance, it tries to send more current. Internal resistance generates heat and a voltage drop. When the battery heats up, the internal resistance and reaction rate both go up slightly.

The above setup has the energy storage capacity of roughly 50 alkaline AA batteries or 100 rechargable NiCad AA's. You just can't discharge 50 AAs in 5 seconds

3rd table down
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:45 pm

sanman wrote:

you have absolutely no interest on this topic at alle xcpet you was asked to come over and make a post in the hopes that you could persuade a ruling because your a manufacturor. Yah i read that posts on caco man.

Oh I came here for the 4 ohm thing, but when I read about the ultracap I was: "WOW, it can't be."

I'm impressed this have been going on for years! After all who wouldn't want to buy a ton of ultracaps and beat who doesn't use them?
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:48 pm

so let me ask you guys this question

in a build that doesnt alolw the vehicle to be ran, and or any charging between 2 tuns where the lower of the 2 scores is the score to be had whats the better choice

caps or batts???????????????????
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:50 pm

I'm impressed this have been going on for years! After all who wouldn't want to buy a ton of ultracaps and beat who doesn't use them?


thats a Cow poopy uneducated statement also


2 examples are

jimbo 6 batts=42 caps with roughly 39k watts is 165.1(18v)
mark bruss with 16 batts=no caps=28k watts=165.1(12v)


so now please oh educated one whats the main differance both have s10's
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:51 pm

2 batts and a bunch of ultracaps... if the rules consider ultracaps (energy storage devices) as being stiffening caps (transient helpers).
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:53 pm

sanman wrote:


jimbo 6 batts=42 caps with roughly 39k watts is 165.1(18v)
mark bruss with 16 batts=no caps=28k watts=165.1(12v)

What? Different vehicles, different competitors, different everything? What anything has to do with anything??
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:55 pm

most of us already know this answer but i want to see what your educted answer is and not the obviouse fact
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:56 pm

i gave you an example of caps and batts

then of just batts both have the same score so please oh please tell me whats the issue here that the one with caps was alot louder since he has more energy to use
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:58 pm

wasnt
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:00 pm

sanman wrote:
i gave you an example of caps and batts

then of just batts both have the same score so please oh please tell me whats the issue here that the one with caps was alot louder since he has more energy to use
`

Are you really trying to use difference SPL vehicles and results as to compare equipment? This is the same as to compare motors saying: Oh this Mustang did in 9s and that bike also did in 9s, their motor's must have similar HP.
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PostSubject: Re: Caps Assistance   Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:04 pm

no whats this is doing is debunking your fuckin idea here homeboy

we dont all use the same dam vehicle therefore caps dont mean Dung Pile then huh


i told you not to try and double talk me


i gave you 2 s10's one had 39k watts the other 28k watts both do the same dammm score, and you can figure out why so you shoot it to the left and try and take the focus in a differant direction
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