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Joint Finals a success. USACI numbers down due to very remote (from USACI) location but better than expected. Results posted on web site.
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 PLEASE READ!!

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solo1
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PostSubject: PLEASE READ!!   Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:48 pm

This is a pm I sent to ralph last week, before the other post about changes was even made. Ralph has not read it yet and I also sent it onto a few others in hopes that something may change. Let me just say that this is just my point of view, but from what ive read in the past week or so it seems that alot of competitors or people that would like to compete think something needs to change. Im sure this will get blown way out of text like the other thread but this is just my opinion, take it for what its worth. This is the only post im gonna make,either you agree in some form or fashion or you dont, I dont have time or care to fight and bicker back and forth about changes, this is just one persons point of view.


Ralph,

Id like to take a few minutes of your time to discuss the issues I see with usaci and what can be done to make it better. Let me just start off by saying that I love the outlaw format, this is where myself and alot of my teamates (team sweep) started competing on a national level, but in its current state neither myself or my team really have the desire to run it anymore. Id like you to keep an open mind while reading this and any comparisons, accusations etc. made are not harshly intended but to try and help. I have some really good ideas that could get your manufacturers and comeptitors back.

The #1 reason you have lost competitors and manufactures is the 4 ohm rating. The 4 ohm rating determines what spl class your in. This needed to be changed years ago and no matter what buisness your in you have to stay relavant. The biggest issues with it are you have probably 75% or more of your competitors using the same amplifier from a small company that probably doesnt even sponsor usaci. The rest of them are sponsored by db drive and run unlimited or run street beat. Their maybe another company that does ok like b2 audio that just really started hitting the scene but for the most part all the competitors are using an rd audio d5 in the lower power classes and pretty much all of them have been won with the same amp for the last 3 years or so. Now why would any big name car audio company sponsor usaci when nobody is using their equipment. Then on the other hand why would someone want to compete in usaci if they have to go buy an $800+ amp of this certain brand just to be competitve in the lowest class available. The main reason for the loss of competitors is cost. Just to be competitve in lowest class,stock 0-600 it would cost $5k plus if your just starting out. Then another factor is, why would a manufacter want to help a competitor for a organization that they dont sponsor or they would have no chance of winning because of the 4 ohm rating. The fact is the companies that are winning dont have to sponsor people because everyone needs that particular amp to win so theyll pay for it.

Another issue is everyone using these supercaps in place of batteries. The rules say unlimited amount of caps which should mean car audio caps xx farad. But people have took it to the extreme and are using banks of 2.5v supercaps in place of batteries. Fact is a bank of these are stronger than a battery and alot of poeple are running like 3-4 banks in the lowest classes. So with the battery limit being 2, they are basically using 4. Something should be done about this, its not what the rule is intended for. And also why would a battery company want to sponsor usaci when nobody is competing with their batteries.

What I purpose should be done, and competitors have been begging for it for years is get rid of the 4ohm rating system and make the classes determined by the highest rms rating of the amplifier. That way you can have amps that are competitve with each other no matter what ohm their rated at. For instance look at kicker, all their amps are rated at 2 ohm, why would anyone want to compete with their amps in usaci, when they can fit 2 or 3 amps of the same power in the same class, just doesnt make much sence. You should have close to the same power in each class no matter what brand of amp you use. Thats not the case at all as of now. You can also lower the cost of competing by doing this. You can say have the lowest class 0-3000watts with a limit of 2 amps. Just about every company out there has a 1500 and 3000watt amp. Something like this will give a much wider range of manufacturers as well. I mean look at MWSPL theyve gotten huge and Id be willing to bet thier finals has a higher attendance than usaci this year. Heres why. Its way more cost affective for the competitor and manufacturers are sposoring them because people are using a wide variety of equipment. Also their finals is free and they have a payout. Like it or not they have something figured out.

Another thing is why did you ever get rid of basic stock? It did really well and gave amatuers a chance to compete on a national level. To keep thriving you have to get new people in the door at finals. As of now nobody wants to start out knowing they are going to finals to lose to a 160 in the lowest spl class. It takes years and alot of money to get to the point that most people in stock classes are at. Why would a amatuer want to compete against a 5+ year veteran?

Heres kinda what I was thinking in class devolpment, Its just off the top of my head and may need tweaked but its a start. I think something like this would work well and Ive talked to other teammates and competitors that think its a good idea as well. I also think that the street beat classes should have a power cap as well, they have gotten way out of hand when the lowest class with 2 tens and 20k power does 158-159s. Anyway I hope some of this was helpful, Id really love to see Usaci thrive again and get teamsweep and other competitors back in the lanes!

MAX RMS AMP RATINGS

AMATUER STOCK/ 15.5V MAX
Amatuer stock 0-1500 watts/ 1 battery/ 1 amp
Amatuer stock 0-3000 watts/ 2 batteries/ 2 amps

STOCK/15.5v MAX
Stock 0-3000 watts/2 batteries/ 2 amps
Stock 3000-6000watts/3 batteries/ 4 amps
Stock 6000-12,000 watts/6 batteries/ 6 amps

PRO STOCK/18v MAX
Pro stock 0-6000 watts/3 batteries/ 4 amps
Pro stock 6000-12,000 watts/6 batteries/ 6 amps
Pro stock unlimited

MODIFIED/18V MAX
Modified 0-10,000 watts/6 batteries/ 4 amps
Modified 10,000-20,000 watts/12 batteries/ 8 amps
Modified unlimited

SUPER MODIFIED/18V MAX
Super modified 0-20,000 watts/unlimited/ 8 amps
Super modified unlimited
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Alan
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:05 pm

Was waiting.. lol
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beatnoutdaframe
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:47 pm

This looks good to me opens up the Oppertunity for a lot more companies to jump on board
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Upzaw2000
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:53 pm

yepz

waiting for the sanman to come in and disrespect everyones mom...

then alan and him will go at it for 2 more days.
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Alan
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:14 pm

He wont. He only shows that kind of love for my posts lol
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Very well put.
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sanman
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:45 pm

nope nothing to say i have read this all before years ago
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:16 am

I believe it is time for a change as well, we have to move with the times and update our rule book.

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Alan
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:40 am

ShowB wrote:
I believe it is time for a change as well, we have to move with the times and update our rule book.

I wish we knew what was even being considered. Im in the middle of discussion with eqot soonsors..and/or getting rid of my car etc. And cant give anyone any answer's. I know its 2 weeks past finals. But just saying... would be cool to know whats even being considered
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:01 pm

I only see one problem with using the MAX RMS ratings. We have seen it for years. Most manufactures rms ratings are BS. Anyone can rate an amp at 1500 rms at 2 ohms. But we all know many competitors run their amps below published ratings. So that 1500 rms at 2 ohm rating gets it into the low power class but competiors wire it for .5 ohms and it is putting out 6K watts? We haven't solved a damn thing. Just increased the ratings. We've seen this with several different manufacturers over the years. In my eyes the only way to get rid of the BS amp rating is to clamp the power end of story. Take that 1500 watt rating as a starting point and clamp the class at 2K watts.
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:12 pm

do we want fareness or to kill certain companies because of the amps they produce


if you want clamped classes then you have MWSPL

ill say this and its kinda funny that the guys that were loud in usaci, and winning titles also went to MWSPL, and well did the exact same thing there over the db drag guys also.


THE USACI FORMAT SEEMS TO BE THE BETTER TEACHER FOR OTHER ORGS AS WELL except for sealed other than that we are on par with the other orgs
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:29 pm

Jeff you said it yourself right there. People are going over to MWSPL. So I am guessing they want clamped classes and to do away with BS amp ratings.

And I agree with Solo1 I am betting MWSPL finals will have every bit if not better turnout than the JOINT finals.
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Alan
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:30 pm

SPLAddict wrote:
I only see one problem with using the MAX RMS ratings. We have seen it for years. Most manufactures rms ratings are BS. Anyone can rate an amp at 1500 rms at 2 ohms. But we all know many competitors run their amps below published ratings. So that 1500 rms at 2 ohm rating gets it into the low power class but competiors wire it for .5 ohms and it is putting out 6K watts? We haven't solved a damn thing. Just increased the ratings. We've seen this with several different manufacturers over the years. In my eyes the only way to get rid of the BS amp rating is to clamp the power end of story. Take that 1500 watt rating as a starting point and clamp the class at 2K watts.

We as competitors know whats what. We all know how this 500w amp thing works. But its how usaci wants it so we play the game. We could call BS on it.. but dont. We all know what a 5k looks like.. its not hard for ralph or whoever to simply say bs.. thats not a 1500w amp. Or maybe another route? Group of competitors to "approve " of an amps classification? I dunno. But. You are right. There is still room for shady ratings. But.. that was originally what the cea rating stuff was for that we talked about at the member meeting years ago. Ifits not cea rated then its out. But.. then manufacturer says.. ok screw usaci.. ill sell ampselseware.. like they do now. So what do we do.. only one method comes to mind so everyone knows there is no power advantage.
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sanman
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:33 pm

no people were running both because finals wasnt crammed togather
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sanman
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:39 pm

MWSPL finals will have every bit if not better turnout than the JOINT finals


this is a given and i explained to someone the other night why

they rent a small venue=less money
they stay in there area=midwest(more prominately MO)
all the competitors are from within 2 -3 states of where its held at.
they had a very well respected retired competitor spearheading it at first or probly still in RILEY so he himself brought alot of competitors over to it.
they hold a meeting to discuss changes right in the middle of the finals
they dont care about spectators, and do bracket style head to head elimininations this makes it exciting.
winners get paid money or atleast used to not sure if they still do or not.
they have finals at a place that has kick ass long island iced teas lol
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Alan
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:42 pm

I think the little travel involved helps alot. I wont comment much more because this is the usaci forum
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sanman
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:47 pm

some of you guys either werent around at the time or dont remember let me put something into perspective for you


we want the usaci of old where there was literally shoulder room in bartell hall do we rememebr what formats it was back then because i do. then in 2005 the decline of attendance what caused it to dwindle, what caused manu's to start backing out, what was the issue. we had a round up of "cheater amps" we told companies well you can have that amp in usaci anymore and companies said oh yeah ok then get bent and they left, and well so did alot of there competitors for that matter this killed USACI. this is what we are also proposing to do now.


food for thought
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sanman
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:51 pm

location has a ton to do with it i mean

you know where it is every year
you know waht time frame
you know the area, and know what to expect
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:35 pm

What people forget is how the economy has changed between the booming years and now. People had a lot more money to spend on toys and hobbies compared to now. You also had a lot more Brick and morter stores promoting car audio.

This has caused a large decline in the number of competitors. In addition, the cost of entry is a lot higher in USACi then an organization like MWSPL. If you are talking about $5,000 being an entry level system, that is far beyond what you would need in MWSPL. For that kind of money, you could probably buy a vehicle, equipment and get everything done for some of the larger classes.

Just like every business model, you need to have a funnel/pipeline of new people coming in. With the current cost of entry, you will not replenish the pipeline fast enough to replace the turnover you are having. That is the one that that some of the other organizations have going for them.

In MWSPL, you can compete in a majority of the classes for an under $2000 investment (retail cost). As we all know, that people don't pay retail any more. So the cost of entry is far less.

The key is to get them hooked early. Then give them a clear path and something to work towards. If they are having fun, they are going to tell people they know and hook more and more people on it.

In short, give people the ability to compete for a lower investment. This will help more then trying to scrap everything and start over. Also remember, that no matter what you do--someone won't like it.
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:44 pm

i won ad3 a few years ago

6 d9's $5400
3 rd 15's $1200
24 kenetick batts $3000
truck/box/alt etc etc $5000

thats dam near $15k
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sanman
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:47 pm

this is why i like what i proposed in usaci

a totally stock class no deadner/autostore batts only/no mods period to the car that means at all

stock1 1 batt 1 amp 100dca
stock 2 2 batts 2 amps 200dca
stock 3 3 batts 3 amps 300dca

put a cap on these with a clamp but for dca not aca cap them off

been a competitor before well your in super stock
2 years as a stock competitor after that your super stock
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Alan
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:54 pm

sanman wrote:
some of you guys either werent around at the time or dont remember let me put something into perspective for you


we want the usaci of old where there was literally shoulder room in bartell hall do we rememebr what formats it was back then because i do. then in 2005 the decline of attendance what caused it to dwindle, what caused manu's to start backing out, what was the issue. we had a round up of "cheater amps" we told companies well you can have that amp in usaci anymore and companies said oh yeah ok then get bent and they left, and well so did alot of there competitors for that matter this killed USACI. this is what we are also proposing to do now.


food for thought

Im not sure what your saying. Do you think if usaci changed classes so the vfk200.1 wasnt so special but EVERY other amp bob makes was usable would piss him off? Do youthink one of our biggest usaci supporters, db drive would love their line of amps to be used in more than 1801+? I bet they do.

Theres really only 2 companies still investing in the 500w game. RD because untill recently was the best and cheapest easily gotten choice and now b2.. simply because Jaywants a part of the US market regardless what amps he needs. Im sure he also would rather his whole line be usable as well.

Perhaps the thing is to get some insite from the manufacturers on this?
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:55 pm

sanman wrote:
i won ad3 a few years ago

6 d9's $5400
3 rd 15's $1200
24 kenetick batts $3000
truck/box/alt etc etc $5000

thats dam near $15k

Is adv3 a new competitor class?
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:56 pm

sanman wrote:
this is why i like what i proposed in usaci

a totally stock class no deadner/autostore batts only/no mods period to the car that means at all

stock1 1 batt 1 amp 100dca
stock 2 2 batts 2 amps 200dca
stock 3 3 batts 3 amps 300dca

put a cap on these with a clamp but for dca not aca cap them off

been a competitor before well your in super stock
2 years as a stock competitor after that your super stock

Are you saying clamp current draw?
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:25 pm

Amplifier efficiency is going to affect power output. End result being the competitors are still going to gravitate toward the one or two 'must-have' amps.

Take the manufacturer out of the equation so that EVERYONE can compete, regardless of brand. Clamped power works... why is there still resistance to it?



Alan wrote:
sanman wrote:
this is why i like what i proposed in usaci

a totally stock class no deadner/autostore batts only/no mods period to the car that means at all

stock1 1 batt 1 amp 100dca
stock 2 2 batts 2 amps 200dca
stock 3 3 batts 3 amps 300dca

put a cap on these with a clamp but for dca not aca cap them off

been a competitor before well your in super stock
2 years as a stock competitor after that your super stock

Are you saying clamp current draw?
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:56 pm

One of the main problems Nate is that people don't want to be just a copy of another organization. If everything was changed over to clamped power, it would almost be a direct copy of MWSPL.
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:25 pm

And people still feel "special" like they have a cheater amp no one else does. The days of one team having the latest 25w are gone. But. You still have to buy a special amp. Its just readily available now.
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sanman
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:31 pm

One of the main problems Nate is that people don't want to be just a copy of another organization. If everything was changed over to clamped power, it would almost be a direct copy of MWSPL.

thank you someone finally understand it


who says the b2 is the newest baddest amp for 0-500

im pretty sure the guy with the highest score in this class uses a dc audio amp


and yes to be differant clamp the DCA draw lets not just take ACV+ACA and decide off that this is the only thing left to use to be differant because noone really does it.
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:36 pm

sanman wrote:
One of the main problems Nate is that people don't want to be just a copy of another organization. If everything was changed over to clamped power, it would almost be a direct copy of MWSPL.

thank you someone finally understand it


who says the b2 is the newest baddest amp for 0-500

im pretty sure the guy with the highest score in this class uses a dc audio amp


and yes to be differant clamp the DCA draw lets not just take ACV+ACA and decide off that this is the only thing left to use to be differant because noone really does it.

highest score in what class uses a dc amp?

and if we are clamping amperage, i want a class to play in... cause my b2 amps stomp a mudhole in my old amps and i hold much hugher voltage.
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PostSubject: Re: PLEASE READ!!   Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:38 pm

moonie 0-600ss dc amp, and yes i know he had a d5 also

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Mobile Audio Competitors Organization :: GENERAL DISCUSSION :: General Discussion :: GENERAL SOUND COMPETITION DISCUSSION-
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