FULL RATED RMS POWER???

So,
USACi has been plagued with 'cheater amps' for over a decade.

Orion was notorious w/ their old school 1/2watt amps....and since then, the problems hAve only compounded exponentially!!!

Yes, the 'best' amps in each class usually show up in world record and national title winning vehicles...but even after protest some have come back w/ mixed results. EX...the original results on the DD M3, came back as a non-legal amp in 0-600 at first then after at 're-test' came back as 'LEGAL' at 4ohm-600w. Then w/ the Cactus, its rated well over the 600w+30% in the manual, but still passes for '600w' classes????? Also, many others.

Hell, 'back in the day' a certain manu was listed as UNLIMITED no matter what series amp you had from them. And that was due to them putting 1800w boards in 1200w-listed cases so they could get in the old 0-300w classes. But, as of late, this brand seems to be in the 'good graces' of USACi.

Anyone that has every tested an amp at multiple loads knows that NO AMP currently on the market will truly produce 1/2 rated power when your double the load! Hell, if I could design an amp that could REALLY do that (without a choke), I would make HELL of alot of $$$$$. (and possibly win a Noble Prize in physics)

So, what do YOU USACi MEMBERS think about the '4ohm ratings' in today's playing field?


Is it out dated?
Would retailers see a gain (by using USACi as a marketing tool) in sales given real world ratings?
Would it help clear up confusion for newbz?

Read my poll and vote....

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EDIT:
I just gotta say...the 30% rule makes alot more since at 'full rated' power @ 14.4v @63hz than anything else.
Hell, If my customer has an ARC 1000.1 , its 'rated' 850w rms @ 4ohm....why the hell does he have to go up against 2 IA 20.1's?
This kinda thing makes retailers not want to host USACi events.

Yes, our shop vehicles will hold their own. But our customers will be pulverized due to unfair ratings. Hell, some shops may even loose customers due to this.

nomatter how you class it, there will always be a 'winningest amp'

full rated huh? so two little nano massive 4000s equals 8000 watts. the max rating on my d9 is 5400. whos realy gonna be bangin the hardest?

if anyone is worried about loosing customers, the manufactures need to stop using power rating to market their big empty heatsinks. they are the ones shooting themselves in the foot. as long as people buy boss and and crap, those people will keep loosing.

lets do this. we will make a class called "i wanna win but i wanna do it for free''. let the babies who cry about thousand dollar amps play down there with eachother

how bout this. if we can outlaw anyone with bigger muscles than me in ufc, then outlaw anyone who is any good then ill go fight. and when i whoop the little 110 lb. teenager thats left over, i can be a champ.

Canaan, hey, i just reread that post and i came across like a dick. my fault. i didnt mean to come off cross. i hope you didnt take it that way. i just was making a point.

has no clue as to what this is suppose to mean ^^^^^^^^
anywho i think we should do maxx power amps an you can cmpare that massive amp to a d9 thats like putting a feather weight in the ring with a heavyweight shits gonna go wrong fast.
i agree with what canaan is saying though this does shy some guys away from wanting to compete in some classes.
the world of car audio is changing an usaci should change with it

what im saying is that you wanna start limiting peoples power to fit your customers needs. well, MY customers like it tuned low. so now MY needs are to limit the freq down to MY liking. that would never and should never happen. it would be dumb.


before you even try, i have never bitched about anyone's pitch. all i do is brag about how low mine is.


on the flip side, usac does needs some way smaller bottom classes.

im gonna sit around taking 2nd from the pros for a minute until i figure out how to beat them. ill tell you what though, changing the rules to do so is a tactic that has never crossed my mind. i was getting whooped in 09 with 4 small amps. you know what i did? i went and looked in the guy's truck and saw his big ass amps. i looked them up, saved up and bought one. you know why i did that? cause thats what it took to win.

^^^^^^this is a competition suppose to be fore the loudest in the world why do we keeep trying to accomodate people who just wanna prove their loud who dont care about the sport. if you get beat and go home crying and whining then that person wasnt gonna be here anyways i just started usaci last year and love it it might not be perfect but i got my ass handed to me and learned from it i learned what amps are best for what classes and alot more you cant just keep accomodating everybody cuz then it just becomes pointless. and as for amps it is not usaci's fault that companies overrate their amps or dont rate them to be in certain classes. maybe if those brands that everybody runs would actually support the sport then maybe they would start looking into it but why change rules to accomodate companies that dont support usaci? just my .02 it is what it is!!

Anyone that has every tested an amp at multiple loads knows that NO AMP currently on the market will truly produce 1/2 rated power when your double the load! Hell, if I could design an amp that could REALLY do that (without a choke), I would make HELL of alot of $$$$$. (and possibly win a Noble Prize in physics)


Are you sure you about this? I dont think youve tested many amps............just sayin

lol.. anyone who brings up anything other than what the rulebook currently is is automatically a whiner and a cryer... its GOING to change sometime.. advancement in equipment happens everyday.. as far as technology fgoes the rulebook is nearly in the stone age..

i see it as crying myself

amsp are tested on a fixed load not a reactive, and if you dont kn ow the differance then some education maybe what you need instead of trying to change the rules.

same thing every year people wanna cry and complain about rules, and the ttruth is if you was half as educated as you thought you was then you would be the one on top of the mountain.
thats ageneral statement not really meant for one person but for a whole lot of people.

know your starting ohmage.know your ohmage with rise/know voltage drop/know how to keep ot from dropping/know what resistance you have in wire/know how to setup your amplifiers to produce the max amount of wattage (not an oscope either) you can run that clean all day long, and i will hand you your fornicating ass with the dirty/know how to tune your car and its not just in the ports people need to get the basics down, and what i have just losted is just that the basics.

last but not least spend 4-6 hours a night after you get off work at 5pm in your car testing, and 14 hours every weekend day testing to truelly know how your car is/what it likes/what changes what and then you might be a professional level


if your not doing them things right thurrrrr then your just donating money

Ok.

I'm thinking many of you misunderstood my stance on 'full rated RMS power'.

So, let me ask this, how many of you on this sight work in the 12v retail market?
If so, how many of you have 'average customers' that understand 4ohm power vs 1ohm?

Also, if you host USACi shows, how many of your customers show up to your show and question you about '4ohm ratings' ???

Yes, I know...the top builders will always be on top, and the top amps (that barely squeaze into classed) will always be the top amps, but I'm coming from a retail stand point and on a local USACi comp level.

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So, If I sell my customer an ARC Audio KS1000.1 (rated 850@ 4ohm, 1000@1ohm) for his 2-12 daily setup in a civic and he loves the setup....BUT he shows up to my show and some random guy w/ 7200w+ kicks his ass in stock 601-1800 by 15db+++, he will get down hearted and possibly not want to compete again. Yes, the other guy had a burp box, but 15dB+ is a staggering # for my customer. Thats like getting beat by 4sec in the 1/4 mile.

Now, lets swap to classes based on 'full rated power'. That same Ks1000.1 in now in a '1000w-2000w' class (just for instance). And this class are FAR more friendly to the 'average joe'. So, say the original 7200w+ guy shows up, but now he is running a 2000w 'full rated power amp' vs my customer's 1000w rated amp. 'That guy' still beats my customers daily/musical ride w/ his burp-box...but its not a 15dB defeat. My customer can (possibly) feel better knowing that his vehicle can still play music and sound good, but 'that guy' can't play below 50hz without possibly ripping up a sub.

I'm not bitching about me not winning in the classes I run, I'm simply stating that the average joe will look at power ratings differently than us USACi competitors.


I agree, even by changing to 'full rated power'...USACi will always see cheater amps and grey area, but, the average joe will have a better area to play in. And USACi could alway use new blood.




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And on a side note. From you USACi competitors that are in the retail 12v industry...
What is the most common FULL RMS power range subwoofer systems you sell?
Hell, I usually see 500-1000wrms systems sold here at the shop....that about you?

I just feel that if USACi appeals to the masses more, they can only grow.

actually man the manu of thta amplifier is appealing to the consumer by inflated 4 ohm ratings or the 1 ohm rating is way off

the aevrage joe will be like wow 1000 watts is alot not knowing any better

you need to explain to your consumer that in the lanes there are way more thna a burp class there is burp/musical/sq/local this is where you are a vital part of mentoring new competitors as a shop owner who in fact supports usaci and vise verrsa

when i first started my local shop had 4-5 guys already in usaci competing, and they asked what i wanted to do or be in this sport i said "I WANNA BE A ASS KICKER" so they sat down laid out a plan for me and off i went, and due to there mentorship i have been really successfull and thank them for that.

selling someone something, and sending them on there way is a buisness and a way to make money, but grooming them to what they want to do is a friendship thta keeps them coming back

I understand were every one is coming from, and all make good points. As far as rated power usaci used the same way as long as I can remember, but there were alot more classes. Not every one can aford this sport, myself for included, but I still do it win or lose. I dont hit high #s but I enjoy doing it. I know that new people get discouraged when they get stomped at there first show, so I can understand the want for lower classes more set for new comers. Just my 2 cents as worthless it might be

you are in VA huh im also in VA at the moment down in colonial heights

I live bout an hour north. So what brings u to va?

sanman wrote:

actually man the manu of thta amplifier is appealing to the consumer by inflated 4 ohm ratings or the 1 ohm rating is way off

the aevrage joe will be like wow 1000 watts is alot not knowing any better

you need to explain to your consumer that in the lanes there are way more thna a burp class there is burp/musical/sq/local this is where you are a vital part of mentoring new competitors as a shop owner who in fact supports usaci and vise verrsa

when i first started my local shop had 4-5 guys already in usaci competing, and they asked what i wanted to do or be in this sport i said "I WANNA BE A ASS KICKER" so they sat down laid out a plan for me and off i went, and due to there mentorship i have been really successfull and thank them for that.

selling someone something, and sending them on there way is a buisness and a way to make money, but grooming them to what they want to do is a friendship thta keeps them coming back

mostly true.. except SB is extended burps, local is one class and every other class (about 30) are burp classes.. the size of the classes suit me just fine because i have enough money at teh moment. work has been good. but to get new people in which seems to be what anyone who has ever won a championship doesnt want... and its not really happeneing.. seems like no one wants competitionaand everyone is happy winning thewir titles every year where allt eh big boys are in different classes for the most part..

im at ft lee for training

the bitching moaning and complaining is the reason where are where we are now

2003 you couoldnt walk through bartle hall the biggest venue usaci has ever been at period

when i say couldnt walk i mean exactly that it was packed

2004 the same

2005 here comes the bitching about amplifiers and we see a dramatic decline in attendance

2006 lol

2007 seems to be a little better

2008 more bitching
2009
2010
and now 2011

this is a sport of who is the best new blood needs to get cmpetitive and learn to get better, but hey alot of parents out there have mad ehte mistake of giving these kids now a days everything so they expect to be catered to well not in the lanes buddy you will earn it

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sanman wrote:

the bitching moaning and complaining is the reason where are where we are now

2003 you couoldnt walk through bartle hall the biggest venue usaci has ever been at period

when i say couldnt walk i mean exactly that it was packed

2004 the same

2005 here comes the bitching about amplifiers and we see a dramatic decline in attendance

2006 lol

2007 seems to be a little better

2008 more bitching
2009
2010
and now 2011

this is a sport of who is the best new blood needs to get cmpetitive and learn to get better, but hey alot of parents out there have mad ehte mistake of giving these kids now a days everything so they expect to be catered to well not in the lanes buddy you will earn it

I wasnt around back then but i agree with what ur sayin.. plus i dont think many people at all know about the local classes and some shows dont have them.. there is nothing listed about them anywhere in the rulebooks....

+its nto a national level class, and its actually up to the people having the show to offer it to the local's, but i will tell you this it is a class or atleast it was when i was competing at finals

I know some of you HATE IT but I feel the LOCAL CLASSES I do at ALL of my shows, "Run What You Brung", is great for the newbies. They get excited and want to learn and want to compete. HELL I have had several, way over 10 maybe even 20, now move out of Run What You Brung into USACi classes and are WINNING, this is within the last 4 years.

Today I had a show in Orange and had 11 people in RWB (short for Run What You Brung) and out of those 11 - 3 of them are going to rebuild before the next show in Houston April 30th.

People just want to compete and fit in, It is all about giving back to the competitor whether it be a veteran or a newbie. I am just giving the newbies a chance to win and get the "BUG"

My Opinion Yet Again

thats the way it should be.. its good

This again?? Really???

Yes Navi, REALLY Hey they got back on the subject. I know you Hate it ... SORRY!

@ Sanman,

I know it's statistics terminology... but "correlation does not equal causation".

Just because you saw the crying start in 2005, around the time of dwindling attendance... doesn't mean that's WHY people stopped showing up

I might suggest that because people felt taken advantage of:
- they cried
- they didn't see any USACI response
- they stopped showing up
- they found equivalent enjoyment in other hobbies

Other people saw this as a discretionary hobby (which it kinda is), when the economy crashed.

Due to natural selection, the people who are left are more inclined to accept the amp rules... because they chose not to leave back then.


Side Note: If there had been a place for them to enjoy the sport, without taking it too seriously... maybe more people would have stuck around. That's why I'm a big fan of Run What You Brung and The $150 Challenge. They bridge the gap for regular classes, since USACI doesn't officially sponsor a "noob" class.

wrong usaci began to dwindle when people who had no real viable skills started crying about amplifier ratings, and then usaci started there head hunting and running people out with the constant changing of rules to be able to accomodate people. well when you accomodate these people those get left out, and they simple decided to say fornicate off and left.

you as to my knowledge have not been around long enought o know exactly what im talking about so instead of trying to some in with well educated words to prove your point you could simply ask questions of that you know nothing of.

simply put gtfoh with that Cow poopy man you have no clue to what im saying i would rather have you ask me than try to over talk me dude

I disagree. I knew a lot of people with a lot of building knowledge who were also very knowledgeable about competing leave because of the cheater amps. It got to the point that winning was just not a sound investment. You would have to spend many thousands of dollars to win at the end of the year to not get anything back from it financially. That is why I like the idea of MSRP classes.

whats a cheater amp tell me right now what it is to you

its not in the rules anywhere that you must run that amplifier at 4 ohms ruring comp anywhere


so what you or they were mad about is an amplifier that surpassed the amplifier that you were using therefore it was a bunch of oh no im not where is was all the sudden because of the new amplifier

you people really need to get real

maybe we need classes setup by ohms

stock 4 ohm class
2 ohm class
1 ohm class

is this what you would like to see