SQ RAV4

Hey fellas,

I'm trying to break into the SQ world. Not to win competitions, but to build my skills and understanding. Like with my SPL setup, I'm hoping to make wise decisions on equipment, placement, and settings ... to make a modestly successful setup at a modest price (good soundstage, detail, center imaging, etc.)

Equipment recently purchased:
Dayton Classic 6.5" (DC-160-
Vifa XT-25 1" ring tweeters
Monster Cable 101 XLN RCAs
12 awg speaker wire (overkill, but it was cheap on P-E)

Reused equipment:
Pair of 2 channel A/B amps (Profile) for bi-amping
Pioneer Premier headunit from 2007. Like the new DEH-p4100ub, but has 3 sets of 4V preouts.


I wanted to get some advice from the veterans of USACI, about:

- How to decide on the optimal crossover frequency (1000-3000 Hz)?
I would probably take a meter from each side of the headrests and see how smooth I could make the transition using alot of guess-and-check work (like SPL)

- How to find the best tweeter direction?
I've heard that the XT-25's are picky about staying on-axis. So I was planning to attach some suction cups to a bracket, and move the tweeters around, again using the guess-and-check method. If you guys have experience with this tweet, I'd love some advice on getting a nice wide soundstage out of it.


Thanks in advance, guys.

i called you!

Well poo... Just realized that I ordered the DC-160 instead of the RS-180. Big difference according to Zaph Audio and others. I read up on both, but clicked the wrong one. Arrrgh.

Time to exercise the P-E return policy... unless you guys can give a good reason to hold on to a woofer with lots of distortion and a peaky midrange.

ring radiators all 'prefer' to be on axis at least somewhat...some need to be 100% on axis. The Vifa you have is very much like the Polk Audio driver from a few years ago...it liked to be 100% on axis to the listeners. I know nothing about the mids you have chosen.

Thanks for the advice. I was noticing from preliminary testing that the 10K-20K octave was noticably missing, unless you were within ~15 degrees of center (left to right). Vertically, it had a bit more tolerance (not more than 30 degrees though), probably due to the shape of the human ear.

Great tweeter, with decent low end extension. Even at low power, it got muddy when I forced it to play low frequencies (midrange), so crossover is mandatory for this guy. 2K to 2.5K should do nicely, but we'll see.

I will say that within the sweet spot, the high highs have a very airy, light feel. Very obvious that this tweet plays beyond my hearing range comfortably, and surprisingly flat. No harshness or tinny spots in the frequency spectrum that I could detect. Well worth the $$, if you can aim it perfectly.

I would say 5k up (ish). Look for your fs point.

Fs = 837 Hz and according to the impedance graphs, anything over 2K will have relatively smooth impedance.

The rule of thumb I've heard is that 2 x Fs is the minimum tweeter crossover frequency.

I see why you say 5000 would be good, since the on-axis performance of this as a super-tweeter is REALLY flat from 5K-20K.

I am curious why you'd recommend against a lower frequency though. As I alluded earlier, the response sounds muddy when the tweeter tries to recreate that lowest octave (1K to 2K), but I couldn't find much fault above that.

Is the advantage in clarity and detail, since the tweet has less frequencies to manage? If so, I'd question how a well done full-range can somehow have both brilliance and boogie.

Upon further reflection, I could see the XT25 as a super-tweeter for a B3S or N. Squeeze that happy range from 1K-5K from the B3N... and let the RS180 handle the bass.

There'd be plenty of overlap between speakers for tweaking the crossovers. All parts are relatively inexpensive, so 3-way on a budget. I could tri-amp using my headunit power + the 2 A/B amps.

Is that a good plan? Do B3S's perform well in-car? I know for HT, they're a great value full-ranger.

Yeah...I have tuned some xt25s...so that number came from personal experience. Worked in a Polk Audio demo truck a while back as well that had SR's.
And yes...an octave up from your Fs point is usually your lower limit. Problems resonate up in octaves however. It acts like a ripple from a rock dropping in a pond.
I don't know the mids...sorry.
You have to watch Vifa...on paper stuff looks great...but you have to trust your ears first and foremost.
I've seen some really multiple thousand dollar speakers look like chaos threw up on a RTA curve once in a car. On paper..they were the shiznit. LOL...everything is in application.

Good advice.

Thanks for lending your experience. The reason I went for the XT25's is because I'd heard the Polk units and was in love. Plus, Tijuana said it was a decent choice. Can't beat that price either.

The HiVi B3N is a simple, cheap full-range 3" driver that has pretty crappy high-end and the lows are understandably quiet (due to cone area). Interstingly their 1K-5K response is pretty good in this response graph.

According to Zaph Audio,




Do you have any recommendations for good midranges to pair with the XT25?

Another fun 3" is the Aura NS3-193


It does have a 5 dB spread, over that range, but it's a great cheap full-range.

I agree with Skedoe , and also on experience working with the vifa tw. Cross them over at 5000 up.You may not hear the distortion at low level , but at higher volume it becomes more noticeable and if you add power .you can have a blown tw. they are best at 5000 up to me also.

Thanks for the advice. Do you have any suggestions for an inexpensive midrange?

BTW, I haven't forgotten to call you back, my phone's touchscreen is dead and I'm trying to get the parts to replace it. Never buy a Samsung Impression, lots of problems.

Hybrid Audio Legatia L3.
www.hybrid-audio.com
inexpensive needs to be defined.

LOL. Hybrid makes some great gear, but it's far from entry level. A pair of L3 mids are $270 from their internet dealer.

For reference, my midbasses are $35 each, my tweets are $20 each. I'd consider ~$40 a good maximum, since that's how much Dayton's 2" mid costs. There should be quite a few good options in that range.

Keep in mind that I'm using this to learn the ropes, not win World Finals. Grad students don't have the cashflow to support high-end gear, so I've gotta be creative (until I get a real job, lol).

buy used....really. You are seeing a lot of HAT customers upgrading to SE drivers now...so the Legatia line is selling here and there.

There is a Buy-back sale that Buwalda posted on Diymobileaudio.com

You might be able to find some L3's there for much cheaper.

$160 for L3's and $190 for L4's is quite a good deal for what you get.

So you know, I went with the Dayton RS52. For half the price of the Hybrid Audio mids, it should yield solid performance... so I can learn which placements, crossover frequencies, and processing are needed for this vehicle. Afterwards, I'll start looking for a good high-end setup that will win some trophies.