First topic message reminder :

As a moderator...I think this may be helpful. Please put anything you want discussed at the Members Meeting pertaining to SQ in this thread. It MAY (no promises) help speed things along.

I absolutely disagree,,, The entry level classes and rookie guys are exactly the ones who should have SPL.... let em crank it up.... You you own a store? right? maybe maybe not? But think about it.... if a kid comes in 90 percent of the time he wants BASS, sell him BASS,,,,

Do you make more money building a system for a kid with 4 15iinch woofers and he wants to compete or a kid that you sell him a single 10 inch woofer and build his car to compete? Sell more gear! get rich! buy a new car! buy a new house! buy a new boat! the list goes on... the only way youll sell big competiotion systems is if the orgs have spl so you have to build big competition systems... making it simple and easier has not grown the sport, nor does it bring in new faces.... so...... the orgs have to give the competitors a reason to spend more money,,,,, BRING BACK SPL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hell, call me, Ill help you design a big bad assss box for your next customer that you can turn into a competitor.... dont be afraid to sell big and make alot of money.... the manufactures are begging you!

alright...I'm off the fence...I'd vote for RTA and SPL to be back in. Two things though...to help combat the noise floor at Finals...I say three takes on RTA and take the avg. Let's tear the roof off of it and see where the cards fall. Unlimited SPL will yield power classes...I don't think Ralph wants more division. Let's cap SPL at 140....and that equals 40pts...not freakin 14.

jsketoe wrote:

alright...I'm off the fence...I'd vote for RTA and SPL to be back in. Two things though...to help combat the noise floor at Finals...I say three takes on RTA and take the avg. Let's tear the roof off of it and see where the cards fall. Unlimited SPL will yield power classes...I don't think Ralph wants more division. Let's cap SPL at 140....and that equals 40pts...not freakin 14.

SQ for the record!

Why 3 takes? I say when the RTA cart pulls up it has a clock on it,,, and when the judge parks it and hits the button you have 5 minutes to make all the adjustments your lil heart can handle,,,, give everyone an oportunity to score as high as they can....

And for SPL you can pay for a retry just like the SPL lanes get to do.... this way everyone gets to make more money,,, from the retailer that sold the system to the organization holding the event!!!

Ahhh yehhh its a win, win for everyone.....

SPL AND RTA BABAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do I here BIGGS for President?!

3 takes...just for noise floor issues...this year was great...but u know that wasout of the ordinary.
spl rerun sounds good.

I kinda dig SPL myself. Being one of those guys that needs to see more "paying" traffic come through our store. I would love to see SPL re introduced into the SQ lanes.

Hell I have a customer right now that went to finals to compete in SPL. He does okay but his main complaint has always been that it is hard for him to compete against the guys that are willing to move enclosures around or replace blown up equipment on the spot. MF told him he had one of the nicer vehicles on the SPL side of the hall this year. My customer took that to heart and has contacted me about building for SQ rather than SPL. He said he want's to keep his truck looking nice and make it sound good. But he still want's to have plenty of volume to rock out.

The guy want's a nice looking vehicle that he can show off. But still jam out hard when he want's to. I don't blame him. I like to take people out to my truck and roll the volume knob up a it. It's impressive and brings business to our store. Therfore keeping me employed in this industry.

I know another guy in Sketoes neck of the woods that is seriously considering converting from SPL to SQ. He's tired of blowing crap up to have a good time and hang out. But he still loves car audio and want'd to continue to be part of the USACi family. Even if it means wearing a pink shirt. LOL

USACi Diet....... nuff said!

I agree with RTA and SPL back in but I'd like to suggest something that would make it easy on Ralph and the staff. What if we do RTO? Iasca tried this in '07 and I think the concept was good. Place the mic in the normal RTA location on the driver's seat and play pink noise, then score RTA and SPL at the same time (RTO). I would modify the scoring like this: RTA would be scored on a 20 point scale, 20 being perfect. (instead of 30 or 40) and SPL would be measured at the same time with 110db cap and give one point for each Db above 90 , 20 point max. The max RTO score would be 40 points and could be added to the current score sheet with no other changes. I Think it would be a real challange to play loud and still maintain a good RTA at the same time. If you don't think 110 Db at the driver's head with pink noise and a flat RTA is not loud try it sometime! Having a single pass for RTA/SPL (RTO) would keep things moving at the show and not require extra staffing for Ralph. This is just a suggestion don't beat me up too much on this , just throwing stuff out there! A good car should be able to play loud AND smooth not just bass.

Mr Watkins that is a pretty good concept. I think that would be a good idea. Kills 2 birds with one stone and provides a challange.

good thoughts wayne,,, but, let SPL be fun. let the competitor play whatever music he wants... i dont know about a cap,,,, mmy first thought is let her rip and give points accordingly.... Lets sell more product!.... I know if I was back in the bay installing on a daily basis, earning commission dollars... I am sure that a guy that rolls in wanting to compete,,, as a store, salesman, installer the guy with the 4) 12 inch woofer competition system is gonna make me more money than the guy designing his system around a single 10 inch woofer...... And let the guy pay for retries,,,, if I play something that doesnt hit as loud as the guy 2 cars before me,,, let me pay a small fee and run SPL again with a different track,,,, lets give the competitors every chance to spend his money and make usaci rich and try to have the highest score and the best chance to win that is possible!!!!! same for RTA just give the guy 5 minutes to do what ever he needs to do,,,, plus we until we get several hundred cars back in the lanes..... we dont really have to worry about speeding things up,,, in fact they been slowing it down, so it looks like we got something going on here..... Hell take a cart, put a meter on it... and competitors take it from car to car them selves,,, honor system,,,,, I know id be keeping an eye on my competition, so there wouldnt be any cheating going on..... there has got to be a way to make it happen,,,, lets off solutions, not keep fussing about whats wrong and griping about why it cant be fixed..... SOLUTIONS

I totally agree with doing what is best for the local reailer ( I am one ) so how about giving the host/promoter the choice to do RTA and or SPL as part of a SQ event. ( I don't know way they wouldn't this is where the money is at) My concern is when I bring up the idea of a SQ competiton to Car Toys corperate (Seattle) they belive the cost of headaces, staffing VS. the returns don't merit participation in a sanctioned event VS. a non-sactioned get together in conjunction with a car show/tuner jam type event with drive by SPL. They belive that your average tuner will spend more money than someone that is heavy into sound quality. One thing they have brought up to me repeatedtly is the fact that no matter how hard they try to make things fair and unbiased, there is always someone talking and posting trash about the host promoter if their installs and customers dominate the show. Car toys (seattle) prefers to take a safe no back-lash approch and stay away from any potential contriversy. People like Rob are rare (I love ya man) I wish more store owners were pasionate about what they sell and what joy a great sound system can bring.
How about we do old school SPL and RTA for the beginner/novice to help them learn the basics like we did, and that will help the retailer sell more and higher margin amps, subs, components ect. and make RTO an option for advanced classes. (these guys already have their gear and are not as likely to buy from you) Most novice/beginners don't care about the ambient noise floor so a 90 Db RTA is not a problem, but as competitors get more invested and have more at stake the ambient noise floor becomes a major bitching point and Ralph can only do so much to address the issue. A 110 Db RTO would midigate the noise floor a little and give a less contaminated readout. Again I want to do what will make retailers WANT to host shows and bring in more $ and new competitors. As seasoned competitors we need to worry about the good and finacial heath of the retailers and their willingness to host SQ events, or this sport will continue to die.
Gary I think you are spot on with your obsrvations and I hope to see them implimented by Ralph. I'm sorry I won't be able to be there, but I can tell by this thead that there are enough people that care to save the sport, please make it easy for Ralph to buy in or it just won't happen.

You are very accurate,,,, The orgs should be requesting buy-in from its customers,,, Manufactures and competitors.... the orgs have already ran off most of the manufactures, regardless of reason, he said, she said, they are gone and are gonna have a difficult time coming back,,,, so once the competitors leave than it is over...... if one org or the other leaves,,, it will just mean a bigger peice of puy for the other orgs..... So the orgs need buy in from the competitors,,,,,, Now,,,, I understand the whole ROI gamma.... and at the end of the day the only reason for a retailer to host an event from car audio competition that is ran by USACI or IASCA or any other org is to draw attention to the store while having a large sale or promotion... if a store was to hold car show or contest and have the doors locked, that would be retarded! so ,,,,, it really doesnt matter if its a car show, bike, show or audio contest, the goal is to sell alot of product,,,, so the orgs have to put togther a package that shows the roi to the retalier,, and either they do not do a good job of that or they dont do it at all... its a different kind of owner now days from what it used to be, different kind of employees, and different kind of customers...... So my message to corportae is this,,,,,, hold a big promo sale, hold a car show (of some kind) and dont make it any more dificult than it needs to be.... whether you use usaci or andy other orgs rules or forma or even make your own,,, if you use your own you will definately be limited to your locals,,, at the end of the day they are the only ones that matter! who wants to give the top trophy to some guy from 2 states away that didnt even buy his stuff here, right? but hosting and usaci or other org, at one time was a huge tool to bring people in from other ares to make the shows big and exciting,,,, personally i think its the only way to go.... CARTOYS has 50 plus stores... if I were USACi!!!!!! i would put together a package and hand it to D.B. and say lets do an event at every other store, 25 events and hold a points series and all i need is your parking lots.... it doesnt cost CARTOYS a dime,,,, all USACi wants is the entry fees..... but the points are not for the competitors,, its for the stores, salepeople, and the installers.... usaci put on a contest a reward the stores that produce the most competitors,,, So now it doesnt matter if its the tuner guy or the hot rod guy or the farmer boy guy, or joe shmoe,,,, the point is the stores will be trying to recruit any and everybody they possibly can,,,, whether they are truly competiton ready or not..... some of these guys may get hooked and come back and spend a fortune.. or not... lol ralph wins because he gets all of those entry fees... CARTOYS wins because they are selling gear and the parking lot is full of cars during there big sales... Heck EVEN tie this in with the tent sales if nothing else.... but it has to be promoted ahead of time... I have it all laid out in a business plan, on how to do it and make it work, just has to be implemted.... If Usaci isnt interested, you guys can do it by your selves... Ill be glad to help......

I'm game if you are. If we can show bruce and D.B. that there is money to be made they will be all over it. If we got them to do one show per store next summer that would be 50+ shows, some in areas that have not had a SQ show for years. It could be the spark we need to light the fire again. For whatever reason(s) they really have a bad taste in their mouth from the last time they did sanctioned SQ. If that can be overcome it should be an easy sale! If Ralph wants in all the better.

Ok, I will pass my information and se what we can make happen.
do you have my number,,, give me a call.. gb

Hmmmmm………

I guess I’ll post one response regarding RTA and one for SPL….. This is the RTA post.

I can not believe that anyone that was involved with SQ competition when we were debating the RTA issue about 14 years ago would seriously consider putting it back in the mix as part of the SQ judging criteria. Are you guys serious???

I guess we need to revisit the technical reasons as to why RTA was removed from the judging criteria. Then, if USACi and the majority of SQ competitors want to re-instate it as part of the SQ scoring, then so be it. What ever the rules are, if we want to compete in the organization, then we abide by the rules.

I understand the desire to use RTA to “help sell products” which is fine. No problem there, as long as it is done with the intention of actually helping the consumer make their system sound better, and the RTA is used properly. However, if an RTA is used simply to influence a consumer to buy something by impressing them with a “complex piece of equipment,” that’s just wrong.

And quite honestly, the way RTA has been used in judging in the past to influence competitors to buy more gear was just wrong too.

I know, because I was caught up in the whole mix when I first started competing in the early 1990’s. I had no idea how an RTA worked, but they used it in the SQ judging lanes. The judges and retailers told me that I needed to have a very specific RTA curve in order for the system to sound good. I was convinced that buying different speakers, another amplifier, etc, etc, etc, was going to help the system to sound better. I spent a lot of money because I was influenced by a bunch of red LEDs on a box. No one explained to me or any other competitor how the RTA worked, or how to properly interpret the data it presented.

I researched, read, experimented, and spent a lot of time learning how an RTA worked. The guys at Autosound 2000, at one of their seminars, went through every aspect of how an RTA works, and at that point, I knew that the way we were using RTA in SQ competition could absolutely, in no uncertain terms, NOT help competitors to make their systems sound better.

Used properly, an RTA is a very valuable tool. I use one to help tune almost every system I work on now. But, in order for an RTA to help, a solid understanding of how it works, it’s limitations, and many specific techniques must be employed in order to use it correctly.

If you guys want to get into specific technical details as to how an RTA works, why it can not work consistently and accurately in the SQ scoring, and how it can be used to help tune car audio systems, we can do that at the meeting. We’d need about 30 minutes to get into just the very basics, and several hours if you want to really get into the specific details. You can also look through the CarSound forum archives for threads and articles on RTA. There are a lot of them there. I’m not going to waste the time here.

Can an RTA be used in the competition lanes? Sure, as long as it is fully explained to the competitors that it is a contest to see who can adjust their system to get the best curve on the display, and is in no way going to tell them anything detailed about how to make their system sound better. But even in this case, when a rookie competitor sees an Expert or Pro competitor “flat line” an RTA curve, and does not fully understand that the signal processing was changed between SQ and RTA judging, that rookie may make the mistakes I did when I first started, and try to make their SQ setting show that flat curve, thinking it will sound better.

Chasing a particular curve on an RTA display to make a system sound better does not work.

And quite honestly, for the past 15+ years, I have been a proponent of using an RTA at SQ events to EDUCATE competitors, and actually tell them something about their systems performance. At every event, have an RTA available, along with someone that truly understands how it works, and the techniques required to make good, repeatable measurements, and allow competitors to spend some time taking measurements in their cars. No judging, no scoring, no time limits…. Just someone that can actually help them understand their system’s SQ performance, correlating what they see on the RTA display with what they hear when listening to the system, and maybe help them make it sound better. And if they end up selling some equipment as part of the process, that’s even better.

If RTA is going to be brought back in as part of the judging process, I think it could work, as long as it is not included in the regular SQ scoring system. What we have now, with SQ and installation makes sense in the regular SQ classes. Adding RTA to that mix does not make any sense.

Make RTA its own format, all by itself, much like SPL, if it’s really that important to be part of the judging. But don’t force everyone to go through RTA scoring in the regular SQ formats, because it simply can not be a truly objective part of the SQ scoring system, nor can it show anything definitive about how the systems actually sound.

Some have mentioned that the best cars should be able to do everything well, and I agree. So how about this… For consideration for Best of Show, RTA and SPL would be included. If the best all around vehicle should win, then a legitimate case can be made to include SQ, SPL, RTA, Installation, and I would add Showmanship, to the overall BOS mix.

And while on the Best of Show topic, if any competitors are excluded from BOS consideration, then it is not a Best of Show Award. It becomes what it was in 2008…. “A Best of Consumer and Pro, and We Don’t Really Know if it is Best of Show Because We Voted to Keep Some Vehicles Out” Award.

Anyhow, I am against including RTA in the regular SQ judging process. I can see legitimate ways to include it at USACi events in other ways, and particularly as an education tool if done right. But it does not belong in the regular classes.

Thoughts on including SPL in the SQ judging process…

SPL is a lot easier to deal with than RTA. There are not nearly as many variables involved that can tremendously affect the SPL reading. And while SPL has very little to do with how a system sounds, it is more objective, and is much easier to gain fair, repeatable, and comparable measurements in every vehicle.

SPL could be incorporated, but we need to be careful that it doesn’t set up a system where competitors will be blowing up speakers all the time. That can get expensive, and would probably chase away a lot of competitors.

Plus, I don’t know that entry level competitors would really be influenced to enter SQ simply because SPL is included. And I don’t think that not having SPL in the SQ scoring prevents anyone from entering SQ. They already have the SPL contest. If they want to enter SQ, they’ll enter SQ, regardless of whether SPL is there or not. And including SPL will definitely chase some competitors away.

That being said, there are technical issues with including SPL in the traditional SQ classes. Now that we do not have power classes, there is no way to break the vehicles into categories that would allow them to compete equitably using unlimited SPL. A capped SPL system may work, but there are issues with that as well. What is the cap? Is that really fair? Etc.

In my opinion, the SQ format is after all about Sound Quality, and I like including Installation in the classes too. And, I believe that every SQ system should be able to get loud, and still sound good. But hitting SPL numbers over 130 dB, especially when it is only the subwoofers playing a test tone below 80 Hz, it has absolutely nothing to do with Sound Quality.

And, pitting a $25,000 system with 12 woofers against a $5,000 system using 1 or 2 woofers, both of them being dedicated SQ systems, doesn’t make sense to me. At that point, it becomes a contest to see who can outspend the other, and is willing to totally compromise the vehicle. Plus, if we do this, then in all likelihood, we will chase away lots of potential competitors because they are not going to want to spend tons of money to install equipment to hit the higher SPL numbers.

I’ve got no problem with including SPL in the Best of Show judging. The very best overall vehicle should win Best of Show. And, keeping the SPL scoring only in the Best of Show criteria would not chase away competitors from the regular classes.

And, for the Best of Show SPL testing, I would like to see it done over the full frequency spectrum, not just below 80 Hz. Maybe something like every one octave frequency band must be within a 30 dB window, and if there are major deviations between bands, points are deducted from the SPL score. It would be a combination of SPL and RTA. And since the very best vehicle should be able to get loud at all frequencies, not just in the sub-bass range, a full frequency bandwidth test would be the most demanding test. It’s easy to make a system loud below 80 Hz with a bunch of subwoofers. But making it sound good and play loud at all frequencies is much more difficult.

For example, in one system, the subs are playing at 150 dB, but there is a 20 dB drop between the subs and the mids. So 20 points are deducted from the score, which would give a score of 130 dB.

Another system can only reach 135 dB, but the largest deviation is only 6 dB, so it scores a 129.

This would bring all systems closer into an equitable scoring frame. SPL is unlimited, but if it is a sub-bass heavy SPL setup during SPL scoring, points can be lost easily.

Of course this would open up the possibility of competitors installing lots of mids and tweeters in order to gain higher full range SPL scores, so, it’s not a fail-safe idea. But if it is only in the BOS criteria, that would be OK.

So, once again, USACi and the majority of competitors can decide on the rules regarding SPL in the SQ formats. But let’s really look at the true influence and effects including SPL would have before committing to it.

We’ve got to grow car audio competition participation first. Specific rules, inclusion of SPL and/or RTA, the choice of judging CD, etc, really don’t matter if we keep losing the competitor base.