First topic message reminder :

As a moderator...I think this may be helpful. Please put anything you want discussed at the Members Meeting pertaining to SQ in this thread. It MAY (no promises) help speed things along.

Proposed class changes should be as follows.....
1. Eliminate Intro Pro & DTS class
2. Create a new Intro or Beginner "Q" class judged with identical sheet currently for Consumer & Pro categories just different
class, geared more for beginners and those who currently compete
in other organizations who don't care about install so much but don't want to be thrown in a class with big budget cars.
3. No Expert in Pro "Q" class. Simple unfair. Expert should stay Expert. THis is a class that basically speaks for itself.
4. Best of Show award??? hmmm. Technically BOS is the best car at the show which I would agree with BUT grouping the Expert cars in this category with Pros and Consumers doesn't seem right either. Again, Expert cars should be in the current Expert class and that be it. I would like to see, maybe, a People's Choice Award or something similar voted on by the judges, staff, and some type of spectator input for an overall Award for a single car at the show.

Just my thoughts...A few other changes need to be made but I feel like these are pretty solid. None of which are intended to upset anyone but to draw "new blood" into USACi, a few common sense things need to be addressed.

Todd Crowder
Team TCA
24 World Championships
2010........coming strong.....????

New "Extreme" class ??? Is this something that is going to exist in the new rules for 2010 or not??? Mixed feelings on this one. If, in fact, a car or cars do decide to compete with the "single seat" of major altered seats they do need to be in a class by themselves. I'm not trying to stir the pot on this one, but if we're all going to a Rules Meeting then we need to get it all out there and be done with it.
NO GRAY AREAS. SImple black and white.

Problem at meeting is going to be time frame to actually get Dung Pile done that's important. I'm figuring SQ portion will probably have roughly 2 1/2 or maybe 3 hours total. Not too much time to screw around with topics that aren't going to matter.

First priority should be to discuss future direction of USACI Sound Quality, class changes and concerns, and any major rules issues. There are several. Time, again is going to be the problem.

There needs to be a few class changes to get new people into the sport. Intro and Intermediate now are pretty cut and dry but I do feel like adding a new more entry level "Q" only class just as the other two current ones will really help. Along with the "FIrst for Free" program and the "Points Sharing" programs. These are awesome ideas, Ralph. I just don't want it to be too late.

Let's all keep posting ideas here and get some of them narrowed down before the Rules Meeting so we can actually show up, vote, and get Dung Pile done. I will be attending and will be bringing probably 5 or 6 more people.

Todd Crowder
Team TCA
24 World Championships
2010........coming strong.....????

Well put

ah...At Regional and Finals events...all sound judging in advanced classes, consumer, pro, and expert, to be judged by two sound judges seated side by side, scoring simultaneously. If only one judge can get in the vehicle at a time to score the car, the car is not allowed to score higher than 50% in any given category on the SQ sheet. There will be no alternating of judges. These are two seat classes and will require two judges simultaneously, side by side.

Just to let you know Todd, I will be in the lanes with the honda in december. And yes it does have a single seat. I hope that the class remains.

Chris, no one said you were not going to get to compete with your car just like it is. I don't want start anything. But calm down, it will all work out. Todd was just making his opinion known. We can talk about it at SEMA.
Rob

Cool Chris...I'm sure you understand the dilemma then. No need to rehash all the old arguments on this topic. But I think everyone STILL AGREES that vehicles with one seat should be in a class by themselves.

My main concerns are that USACi does not want to add any more classes but probably eliminate a few. Thus leading to fewer trophies, etc needed for each show. I don't see how you can do too much with what we currently have other than restructure SQ to contain 10 classes total, Proposed would be:

1. Beginner or Intro "Q"
2. Consumer "Q"
3. Pro "Q"
ALL ABOVE WITH EXACT SAME SCORE SHEETS
4. Cons. Beginner or current Intro SQ (expanding 10 add. points for tonality)
5. Cons. Intermediate SQ (maybe add 10 point section for creativity)
6. Cons. Advanced SQ
ELIMINATE SPL FROM SCORESHEET ENTIRELY ON INT. & ADV.
7. Pro Intermediate SQ (or rename)
8. Pro Advanced SQ
ELIMINATE SPL EITHER ENTIRELY OR MAKE IT MORE IN ADV. ONLY
9. Expert SQ
10. Extreme SQ (or whatever its going to be called)
DISCUSS WHETHER SPL SHOULD BE IN/OUT AND WHAT CAP ????


Just thoughts...It makes more sense to me. You still end up with the same amount of total classes, so awards, etc would be the same. I think by altering the Beginner, Intro classes and possible adding a little to Intermediate that this will intise new competitors.
No offense to the DTS guys, but lack of support here....I just don't see it. And Pro cars should be either Inter. or Adv. No need for Intro here.

Todd Crowder
Team TCA
24 World Championships
2010..........coming strong........????

Just to clarify... Expert and Extreme should be the UNLIMITED NO HOLDS BARRED BIG DOG RUN WHAT U BRUNG CLASSES, right?? SO question remains, if they are the big classes should SPL be a variable?? One would think YES. Makes no difference to me personally. If and when I build my own car, I will be at a disadvantage by having unlimited SPL but being an UNBIASED person, I can't help but think that if you are competing in the "BIG DOG" class, shouldnt you be able to DO IT ALL ???

If SO, by adding a section for UNLIMITED SPL or at least a 150dB CAP and make each point count for 1 over 100dB it would be much like older rules where even when SPL counted, on a 450+ point scoresheet, its still only a SMALL PERCENTAGE of the overall score.
Make sense but this will be one that comes to a VOTE....

Todd Crowder
Team TCA
24 World Championships
2010..........coming strong........????

SPL should be in every class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the orgs are truly here topromote the industry, that would mean that they should also help drive sales... allowing sq competitors the ability to compete at a high end level and be able to do so with nothing but an 10 inch woofer does not help my friends that own stores sell more woofers, bigger woofer, or larger amplifiers to operate the larger systems.... It doesnt help manufactures sell more product.... the list goes on......

spl in every class, just cap the different classes if you want.. But by all means, lets sell some product..........

Add RTA too,,,, I have always been a supporter of RTA, and SPL... these are the only aspects of the event that a machine has the final say so,,, no personal opinions here,,,,, in a different post someone stated, "when we gat a computer that can score a sq car then well have it made" ha! we do! add RTA and SPL back in! So what if you think its not relevant, and that those are sales tools... ahhhhh sales tools,,,,, lets generate sales! add RTA and SPL!!!!
Let me beat that dead horse one more time,,, ADD RTA AND SPL!!!!!!

so you are saying that you want to bring back RTA and SPL...is that what I am getting from you?? You were a bit vague. j/k gary...it could be the end to a means...but if we are going to do it, let's just get one added in. they both use a machine and RTA isn't going to sell product nearly as well as SPL. So if we were to add SPL back in the mix, then product will sell, more interest would be added, and possibly those who have been the staples on the stage might be overthrown too.

Not that I think I have any chance with a convertible. LOL

Hey dude, I'm with you on the RTA in SPL. I would prefer it be that way in every class also. Only reason I didn't mention it for everybody is because of the "dead horse". NO WAY IT WILL EVER HAPPEN. Too many politics, whiners, and haters to ever let it happen again. IMO deleting SPL led to downfall of SQ in USACi as a whole.

It could very easily be added to say a 130 or 135. Hell maybe 140 for most classes. Problem is more time and manpower for the staff to get it done. THey have realized over the years that they can get thru the show just fine without and basically don't care about US being able to sell more product. We sell higher end lines at my shop. But I don't know when a comp car I've built anytime recent had more in the subs and amps than in the front end. And what do you sell more of??? SUBS AND AMPS!!!

Make it happen. RTA would also be the bomb. It would take a little more time to do at a show but is an excellent tool and with the processors out now with multiple presets, etc. it would be easy to set most cars up. Back in the day, you know, remember the EQTs......one SQ, RTA, and SPL setting. If your were lucky, you had a front preamp or sub control where you could at least TURN IT UP for SPL. RTA will just take up too much time to do in every class. That's why that will never happen.

I would like to several changes like these but in the real world....what will really happen???? That was my thought on Class changes I mentioned earlier. SPL should definetly be involved, rather in partial classes or all.

Todd Crowder
Team TCA
24 World Championships
2010..........coming strong........????

People that know me know my stance on SPL and RTA.

I'm all for RTA and SPL. and Gary is wright bringing back the RTA would teach Dealers about what it can do to drive Sales as long you know how to use it.

For anyone to say RTA does not help sales is absolutely out of touch with what happens on the sales floor at car audio shops around the country!... Here is a story, my first contest that I enetered was in 1987 at the HIFI Shop in Lawton Ok. I had bought my first system there, and they had an upcoming contest and I made sure I was ready for it.... I had polk cow eye ball tweeters in the top of the doors. I had Petra ^6 inch mids in the lower doors. All ran off of a punch 45,,, I had 2) 15 inch punch woofers run off of a punch 45.... I had a Concord cassette deck... I ran through the lanes and did a 136.1 on SPL!!! Dude that was loud!!! I scored about a 7 on RTA.... I looked at the screen, the guy from Bazooka was running the rta machine.. He said "Dude you aint got no midbass" So guess what the next day I went and bought a pair of 8 inch woofers, another punch 45 to run them.... I went to another show the following week, same guy running rta... I went through, he said "Dude your shiiit is better than last week but your frequencies are all over the place" So the next day I went and bought a Rockford OEQ-1....... Guess what? RTA in 1987 is the reason I spent anouther $1500.00 at that shop..... I have remebered this and applied it thoughout all of my years working retail.... Many many times I have sold certain speakers or additional speakers by explaing how an rta works, and what it should look like... and what each dot on the screen represents.... RTA is a sales tool... like it or not, if you do not think it is,,, well you need to change your way of thinking, and start using it as one,, and watch your sales increase......

So if we are all so worried about getting new people into the lanes, I am sure thay all will benefit from seeing and knowing what the cars fre response is... or should be.... it sales speakers, and amps, and eq's.... PERIOD!!!!! The only people that do not want RTA are people that are scared or just do not understand what a successful sales tool it can be.... I teach guys every month how to use their RTA as a install tool and a sales tool.... Drives me crazy to see anyone set here try to argue against it....... ADD RTA AND SPL BACK TO ALL CLASSES. if so many guys here are all so mighty great tuners and installers it shouldnt be an issue.

damn...I am out of touch...<SNIFF>

I see your point, point well taken. Carry on my wayward son..Carry On...you will always remember!

I need sleep I think.

Well told Gary!!!!!!!!

Hey Rob, I wasn't disgruntled. That is what I hate about this forum. I was letting Todd know that at least one of those extreme cars will be in the lanes all year. That is it. I think Biggs is dead on. We really should reintroduce SPL and RTA. I think it is a big plus to shops as a huge sales tool.

Add RTA back in. How many guys today are not running a DSP with presets.

SPL is fine let's not get crazy with it.IMO 135 max with 5 bonus points up to 140 or we will have guys winning due to a SPL score.

I do SPL and SQ. If I want to do SPL I go do SPL and it is not with my SQ vehicle but 140 should be doable for most people.

So I agree bring it back except for the entry/intro level class. Which just needs to have the sound portion of the score sheet adjust some.