what qualities or sound experience should a sound q judge have?
robrice

Great ears and blinders!!! Lol

How do you know if someone has a great ears?
rob

You dont. The thing about SQ is it so so subjective. I m not sure if it could truely be measured like they do in spl. Things sound differently to different people. I guess if you have an understanding of how a sound field is supposed to be is a good start. Rob I am not sure there is a defenitive answer to that question.

do you think sound judges should have some kind of certification, especially for the big contests. maybe some kind of training.

Rob-Something is needed.

They should be an expert at the songs that are used to judge. They should have heard them on a reference standard system.

Training and certification is needed. Some sort of test is needed for certification.

In the last 2 to 3 weeks I have spoken with around 5 guys that used to compete.

Top 2 reasons they quit.
1. No money in it
2. Unqualified judges.

I for one would be happy to go through some other formal training outside of MSE's course.

I think that certification should be done, as for a reference system, I don't think that one is readily available for all people, but if needed, one should be made avail during the training. I agree on the need that the songs need to be memorized and that the judges need to be certified.

I have gone through Mark E's course, and will take it again as a refresher here in OKC. But aside from that, people have always told me i have a good ear. I have some seek me out to listen to their cars, but, I am not certified as of yet. I do wish to be if needed.

I know that in the other two major orgs their training is much more strengent than ours. But that doesn't mean that their judges are that much more qualified or better than ours.

just my .03 cents
.02 for the observation
.01 for the economy
--Joe

IMO either there needs to be something put together similar to what Mark does or maybe USACi needs to look into people that want to be judges must have to have attended Mark's seminar as a prerequisite.

He does provide a reference set-up.

I will be attending his OKC seminar in November.

Brian,

Part of the "certification process" through USACi is to attend Mark's seminar. It is a great starting point. Maybe if we bring it up with Mark to listen to the USACi songs on the genelec's so we can hear them on a true reference system. Just a thought

I can do free hearing tests to all judges to start.
Then do all the training you want.

J.

i agree with joe , marks class is a great start , but the judge is to have a good reference and memorized the cd . perhaps mark should do a class for just judges to learn the cd's being use and what to pay attention and everything a judge needs. i am sure a class like this can be done in 1 day . if something like this could be done judges could be closer in the judging procedures , better trained .

I have akso been to Mark's seminar and he is very good at teaching how to get good sound and he knows what good sound is. But he is also a competitor. Mark is a good friend and a very ethical person. When is he going to have time to teach or is it truely fair to have him doing the training?
Just a thought, not meant to inflame anybody.
rob

The best judges to me are the ones that not only can tell you something is wrong with a system, but also how to fix it.

So an easy test is Mark's thing with teh two EQ's in line. A good judge should be able to listen to the system with no eq. Have someone make some small changes, and that judge be able to pick out what changed and where it is centered. The person would also be able to vocalize what instruments in the music changed and how they changed.

Pick a percentage that they have to hit in. The ones that get it the dead closest are your finals judges. Widen out for regionals, and even wider for local shows (but still with some sense of correctness).

That will give you judges that not only know when something isn't right, but also have enough information to help competitors fix problems---which is HUGE for new comers.


Unfortunately, I think you would end up with very few judges. Most people know what they like when it comes to music and know when something isn't right---but actually fixing the problem is more of an art form.




Imaging--that's a bit harder to test. Depth being the hardest one. 15 judges will give you 15 different scores in depth. Same deal with ambiance. Those two sections of the scoresheet are the lottery when it comes to SQ judging. Your number either comes up or not. Never a good explanation to either.

Well put Andy.

If that is the case, I will gladly stand down as a SQ judge. I didn't do so hot on the EQ stage. I only know what sounds good to me. Besides, it is easier to be a SQ competitor than a competitor/judge.

Rob, you didn't flame anyone. I feel that Mark is just as strong in his convictions as he is in competition. I think that if he were to teach a course layed out like Ruperto mentioned, then it would be to truly benefit the quality of the judging. But I would be speaking for Mark, and I am not qualified to do that.

I'll step up and comment, being that I have judged sound and install at FInals...I'll jump up and down to tell you that I am more qualified at judging sound than install. LOL...

So...sound judging, I for one have been through Mark's class...it was a great class and I learned a few things and he had great literature at our disposal. He didn't however teach anyone in the class anything that in my opinion would make them "ready" to be a USACi Sound judge. He taught stuff that we as judges need to know though...so yes it's a great prerequisite. Is that all you need? No.

I went through judges training in the late 90s...actually Reggie taught me quite a bit...then my music background did the rest ( I have a minor in music...was also a music major for a couple of years). I learned from Goudy how to judge multiple cars and keep your head straight...hard to explain...but Pate and I were on the same plane of thought when we judged together in Tyler.

There are a few types of people to be leary of...one, someone that works in the industry does not necessarily have 'ears'. And two, someone with a Championship under their belt may have been paying or having someone else tune their car.

So, how do we find new judges? Keep the old judges happy, giving them what they need at the big shows...always put a new guy with them for the 2seat classes. voila...trained. The directors and mgmnt at USACi are the ones to keep up with the judging pool. IMO, competitors need to be out of this one. Just like what Rob said, it's hard for Mark to train a judge that will judge him eventually. Mark's not the type to steer someone by any means. But I've been judged by someone that said "you need to hear my car...that's how it should be done"...LMAO. (note to self...that's not a WF judge. LOL)

So, yes...I think there needs to be more in depth training. I for one think that all USAC judges need to be trained by a WF qualified judge. Then, WF judges need to have a brief refresher like the day before judging.
I don't think " I want to judge SQ" should immediately put someone in training. I as a competitor want to see someone that has some 'clout' judging at Finals. I want to see the guys with music backgrounds, proven ears, championship wins that THEY tuned, etc.

Well put..
Rob Rice

What a great an straight forward question. I myself was taught to judge SQ by James Feltenbuger many years ago, who I think was one of the very best at SQ judging. I judged at the 06 and 07 USACi finals, and I swore to myself i would not do it again because of of the lack of training the other judges had. Jsketoe said it very well when he talked about judges saying you need to hear there cars.(what a joke that is)

As a SQ judge my job is to judge the car as presented to me at that time with no preconceptions and then tell you what I listened to that was wright and wrong with that car. NOT TO TELL YOU HOW TO FIX IT. That is up to you!!!!

But after all that the short answer to your question is KNOWLEDGE, TRUST and a OPEN MIND.

I agree with Sketoe on this 100%.

Issue is there are judges running around that have no clue and this sets a bad precedence.

I have no clue what the answer is to fix this, inexperience.

We are going to get a reference system for the store first of all.
Our entire staff attended Mark"s class and we will practice what we learned. Hopefully by doing these things and listening to the test cds and practicing these techniques we will learn good sound.


We will learn and we will get better.
robrice

That is the best way to do things Rob. Congrats on making the stand to better train your staff and yourself. IMO, that speaks volumes to the professionalism that CarToys Tulsa shows!