First topic message reminder :

what qualities or sound experience should a sound q judge have?
robrice

I am very open in what I say. If I offend anyone by my posts I do apologize, but I WILL NOT bite my tongue. I am very blunt and will say what I think as long as it is positive to the topic we are discussing. I think some people might bite their tongue a lot on here and not say something everybody is thinking. This is not positive for us. We need all problems out in the open. If we can not do that as SQ Competitors trying to keep SQ alive, or increase numbers, then we are getting nowhere. We all need to be honest with each other and what we are all thinking. If we put everything on the table and discuss it, more good will come then bad.

I had a person judge my car several years ago.... This person is thought of as one of the premeir judges in the region.. He listened to my car and made comments about how great it sounded and that the reason I had such great sound was because of the Focal speakers that I was using..... I had Focal in the Buick up until this particular season, I had taken the Focal speakers out because of a warranty issue that I was having with another customer/competitor's car. I guesss I was trying to prove a point... Anyways' I just let him go thinking and saying what he wanted, I won the show... And from that point on, I always built my car and others to have a stealth front stage,,,, you have to let the judges beleive what they want to beleive..... I have had people think everything under the sun about the Buick... from center channells to horns to what brand is in the car.... I can tell you this,,, Focal up to 1998, then JBL 504 GTI until 2001 then DynAudio until 2002, then JBL until present. It dosnt matter how great of person they are, whether or not they have golden ears... Every judge is BIASED! about something,, and the Brand of gear is usually the biggest problem we as competitors have to deal with..... so if you really want to have great sound in your car and be judged by a great set of unbiased ears. make sure they cant see what they are listening to.... and that goes for speaker location as well.....

then how about this, change the score sheet so that there is no mention as to what speakers the competitor has. If the judge asks what speakers he/she has, then he/she has the right to request another judge to keep the bias down to a minimum.

That is a very good point. I have tried to tell people judges are biased before and not many people listen. It's a mental thing. I am NOT singling anyone out. If you have someone that has won world finals 5 times in a row in their class, then mentally a judge is gonna think, this car is going to sound amazing.. This is why I want to push that there should be different judges at least at World Finals every year. This would not entirely get rid of the problem but it would help.

Champions post is very accurate. I have had judges sit in my first car I ever had for 2 minutes, get out and tell me I needed kick panels if I want to win. And that I needed better speakers then JL Audio XR's which is what I had at the time. It sucks that this happens but it does. Unfortunately not everyone can build a stealthy system because it really depends on the car.. Hiding tweeters in the pillars is very difficult if you do not have someone that really knows what they are doing. Very good points, llttle off topic, but things to definatly be considered and discussed.

I didn't know there was a spot or place on the scoresheet as to mention what kind of "gear" a competitor has installed in their vehicle. Sure, right to request a new judge sounds great but how realistic is that going to be?? Most of the time it's only one or maybe two sound judges at the show in the first place.

I do agree with everyone letting it all out. I mean throw out your ideas on problems and possible solutions. There has already been alot of great ideas on here. Bringing back SPL and RTA...Exellent. But just as folks are going to complain about this, they will also complain about the SQ judges. Just as maybe a few judges may have some sort of BIAS towards a particular car, competitor, brand, etc...there are also competitors who feel BIASed toward judges. Universal problem that WILL NEVER GO AWAY.

Fact is, several things can be done to improve SQ as it is today, attract NEW competitors to the sport, and help train Sound Judges for the shows. But what is the incentive for a judge to actually take up his/her time and come to judge an event???? Most of the time there is NO compensation at all for these people. Without them= NO SHOW. Back to problem with no sq or low turnouts and thus leading to SPL ONLY shows. Low staff required, no training, etc. Granted there are still a few who judge because they love the sport and want to participate. I applaud them for that. Without you all there would be NO SQ in USACi.

I guess my main point I'm trying to make is that although its great to have some SQ seminars and judges' trainings, if we don't have willing people to spend their hard earn $$$ to actually go to the shows and judge then what's the point??? USACi needs to come up with something to reward ALL judges at events other than points OR no matter what kind of forward leaps there are for sound q training you are still going to see the same whole sh*t. Just as every competitor want CASH prizes (at least the old-schooler's), don't you think its only fair to have all the Judge's expenses at a minimum paid??? Maybe this is the root of the problem or at least a big part of it. There's a reason why "SQ Judges Pool" is what it is today and not near like it was several years ago...

We as competitors/builders can only do so much to keep this sport "afloat".

My two cents on the matter...

Todd Crowder
Team TCA
24 World Championships
Benton, Arkansas

Todd makes a very good point. There is really no incentive for someone to even become a USACi judge nowadays.. Unless you just love the sport. And I also applaud the judges that have stuck around because they love it. Todd is also completely correct on SPL shows needing low staff to run compared to running a SQ show or SQ/SPL combo. This lowers numbers and is yet another problem we all need to address...

I would at least suggest compensating the judges for their gas and hotel if they are needed to travel. Then depending on how long they are at the show, total it up and pay them one good lump sum for coming out to judge. I know that if you are a judge and competitor then the judge will receive points for attending the judging the show. But, really guys? Points? I can get enough points for Finals by hitting hole in the wall shows where no one is in my class and taking first a few times, then just sit around and have someone tune on my car every week till Finals. I appreciate them TRYING to attract judges.. but that is no where near enough incentive for me personally to be a judge or go to training which I'm more than likely going to have to pay for that is going to be way out of my way which means gas money there and back then going to shows halfway across Texas which means more gas money and maybe a hotel to acquire points I could have gotten down the road from my house.

Reality is not many people work for free... Except for those who love doing it.. and I appreciate everyone of the judges that is still around today for doing what they do. But we need more, we need TRAINED judges, and we need to give them incentive to be a judge in the first place.

hmmmm very very good point.... I wasnt aware that judges were not compensated for there hard work? I Have judged several IASCA events in Mexico as I have judged many shows in ASIA for IASCA, I was compensated every time.... I understand these are large events and not your everyday small local events,,,, But I absolutely beleive that a judge should be compensated for his time. At bare minimum all travel expenses, kept to a minimum of course.. You know dont fly first class. Dont eat lobster, etc...... Why would the orgs not compensate them. Judges are basically employees at this point, correct? PAY THE JUDGES, BRING BACK SPL, BRING BACK RTA, BRING BACK PRIZE MONEY, This would be re-building the Competition Industry.... And as we are told,,,,, You build they will come!

I didnt realize judges were compensated, I recently judged the Scrapin the Coast show, and was provided a hotel only which was shared with other judges.
I didnt even ask about compensation, never was a thought, It cost me 200 bucks in gas plus everyday expenses, and would never ask to be compensated. I drove 6 hours and spent a few hundred dollars just to judge a show that means nothing to anyone in the rest of the world, just to give a little support to the sport.


Now ask yourself what kinda of judge do you really want?

Nolan Menne

One who does it for the money or for the passion of the hobby?

I hate to say this and it might ruffle a few feathers. It is like Gary said in his earlier post people who are getting paid to do this are considered Employees... those who are not are considered Volunteers. There is really no argument here Employees will always be held to a higher standard than Volunteers. No mater how much the Volunteer loves what he or she is doing.

Fact...

NO ONE SAID that you couldn't love the sport and drive to a show and judge on your OWN nickel. If that's what u want and can afford it then more power to you. The point is that you cannot get more qaulified, certified, non-biased, diehard sound gurus involved in USACi SQ judging if they don't have some sort of incentive to do so. (travel expenses at a minimum). You can have this argument all you want and I will bet money right now that is why you only have a handful and I mean small handful of people to choose from.

The term "incentive" is not ment to offer a cash salary or other bonus to any prospective Sound judge. It just means that USACi and/or the show promoter should get together (at least at bigger events) and cover your Judge's expenses to get them to the show.

By the way, DSN in Biloxi was indeed at Scrapin the Coast but WAS NOT affiliated with USACi in any way.

Well said Todd

Thanks Val. I think most folks get it. Just when you think you are having a good discussion somehow it always get screwed up.


Todd

We all have to look reality in the face and determine what we can and cannot do. Be honest with ourselves and do what is best for country and fellow man..... I have a ton of respect for Nolan! We go a long ways back. He makes a great point, that it isnt about the money no matter which side of the fence your on, whether your a judge or a competitor.... But the next guy, will say it is all about the money, whther judge or competitor... There comes a point where finance will hender any and everyone from doing somehting... Example; the orgs say that they are passionate about the competition scene and want it to flourish, but they immediately turn around and say it is thier lifeline and this is how they earn a living.... When is the last time that a org put on a free event? the judges say they are passionate about the competition scene and want it to flourish, some do not want or need compensation, some absolutely have to have it or they cannot attend.... Competitors say they are passionate and want the competition scene to flourish, some can spend small fortunes on their cars, nd some cannot.... some can travel across country to shows, some cannot.... but at the end of the day, we can all see where a little bit of sharing the wealth helps us all help each other.... As soon as one of the three say "The hell with it, i am done" then it is all over! The orgs are like Target, Cosco,Walmart etc, the judges are the cashiers, the competitors are the customers..... we as customers have a few places to shop.... the orgs or superstores, should provide us with what we need, what we want, and have it available on every block.... the judges or cashiers, should be friendly courious and willing to help us if at all possible.... we competitors or customers have the option of shopping or competing where ever we want..... so lets all stopp fussing about the color of the Kool-Aid, and find someone that will give us what we want, and listen to our concerns, and supply us with a great experience!!! Each Org is doing what they can to attract competitors. Competitors ultimately win or lose.... If we want to win we have to get behind one org that is willing to give us what we want..... Stores on every corner, a great shopping experience when we get there. Keep prices affordable, ,, So,, give us more shows! Make the shows fun! and compensate for some of the costs or expenses.... PRIZE MONEY!

Here is a small twist on the subject...

I see alot of pride in competitors lately. Pride comes before a fall it has been written. If we as competitors can lower our sense of what should be, and open ourselves to constructive criticism, maybe just maybe we can have it like it used to be.

Anyone that is competitive in 2 seat judging has most likely gotten an install that could be 10grand or more. I am not saying that is what you paid, but what retail would cost.

Hell, some of the basic competitors have that much invested, so what is going against us having a good time at contests? Pride.

I have never bitched about scoring that I received. I have always just had a good time competing. I wish I could hear that from all competitors.

The first show I judged I was asked "how could this no-name beat me, I am a 3 time World Champion?" His pride is what got in the way. This is 2 seat judging, and I am not the only judge here, we both thought that the car was considerably better sounding that day. The next show it could be totally the opposite. When it was all said and done, it was some install points that proved the margin of victory.

Still, we have too much pride in thinking that our cars are the who all, be all, win all in contests.

Lower your pride, enjoy your time, listen to the judges and maybe, just maybe there will be more people wanting to judge due to the reduction of complaints.

Just a thought.

that is like asking jerry jones (owner of dallas cowboys) to lower his pride,,,, 'it doesnt matter if you win, just have a good time" lol not gonna happen! be more open to criticzm might be the best term? The reason most people complain about the judging is because most people have little respect for the judges.... if lil boy blue, judges my car and I dont really know who he is.... how much respect do I have for his judging abilities? but if johnny come lately, judges my car and he has won finals 19 times and builds way cool cars, then i might have a bit more respect for him.... that ultimately is what alot of guys think and feel...... so with that being said,,,,, judges probably should always be working to increase there knowledge and judging abilities...... Who would you trust to more to help you record and master a demo cd if you were making one.... garth brooks or some guy from wyoming that you have never heard of? its human nature.....

" judges probably should always be working to increase there knowledge and judging abilities......"

agree 100% , that is the best way a judge can get respect .