First topic message reminder :

what qualities or sound experience should a sound q judge have?
robrice

This is a great topic..... And I have a real simple question.

How many of you guys know how to play a musical instrument? I dont mean mess around but truly know how to play an instrument and know how to tune that instrument to sound true?????

How many Sq judges do?????

So, if you do not know how to play the piano or the sax or any of the other instruments that make up the music of which we listen too,,,,, Do no get out of my car and score me any less than perfect on tonality....... now lets take it a step further..... just because you may know how to play the violin and know how to tune the violin to make beutiful music,,, does that mean the way the artist recoreded that particular song, that everything was perfectly tuned? absolutely not,,,, so unless you know how to play many many many instruments, and you were in the recording studio when that performance took place and you know that no-one re-mastered the original piece, then you cant tell me that a certain instrument didnt sound like it was supposed too, can you?

Now you can judge stage hieght and width and depth, and I cant argue much with you about that, unless you hav not cleaned out your ears in quite some time.....

So see this is a losing battle all together, unless you know what kind of sound the majority of the people walking around on planet earth like to hear, then you can get real close to at least having a sound in your car that is pleasing to most..... It takes alot of experience, going to alot of shows and listening to alot of DIFFERENT kinds of REFERENCE systems,,,,,, not just the GENELEC or something of the like.....

So lets at least start with having every sq judge take a hearing loss test..... Have a standard of which you have to score at least a certain percentile or better.... Then have a standard on how big or small the sq judge should be.... I know i know what your thinking,,, but we all know it as well.... and finally SQ judging should be done with whatever music the particular SQ judge wants to use... yep what ever he likes and is intement with,,,,,, it should be public knowledge posted on each orgs website, and you should be able to contact the SQ judge with any questions you have about his recordings of choice...

You can attend all of the classes you want, and you will aquire alot of great information and knowledge, and that is definately a great path to follow, but it is a long way from the solution....

nicely done Gary. I agree with you on most every point.

I have run sound for my brother's band for 10 years or so. I have also run sound at my church for the last 2 years ( 700 active members ) and I tune by ear both. I have tried to tune by RTA in the church, and what should sound good by the RTA, sounds nasty. Similarly in a car I would guess.

Am I qualified to be a SQ judge? So far, my size ( 6'1 300lbs ) most likely won't get the job done, the fact that my voice is my instrument ( studied Vocal Music Performance major with biology minor in college ) and how I tune it...no matter how well I think I have tuned it, I know it sounds nasty. (was never a great opera singer) Hence, no VMP graduation.

I agree completely as to what music the judge should have, unless the judge has to use the judging cd by the prospective Org.

If that is the case, then there should be "cliff notes" as to what is needed to be ascertained in the song in order to come across through the installation. Things like " you should hear the swirling, brushing of the snare during this jazz track as well as the airy breath through the microphone... " crap like that. Judges need to know the song inside and out, and if judges have a guideline as to what they should be listening for, maybe that will help them in judging a car the way the music plays.

I agree that knowledge and classes can teach only so much, and that experience goes a long way, but what is considered enough experience?

I have been in sq competition since the late '80s, but not in constant competition. Does that make me any better of a judge than someone that hypothetically competed in SPL for the last 10 years and now is an SQ supporter? I think it does.

First my hearing is most likely not screwed like an SPL competitor might be. Second I have been only SQ for the whole time. Experience wise, this should qualify me.

Jorge (aka Doiter) has offered to administer an auditory test to anyone who is interested in being a judge. THANK YOU JORGE! This is a step in the right direction for sure. If you don't pass this test, it should be a good indication that judging is not right for you.

Those that pass the test, should have to attend a workshop ( preferably free ) that will teach them what tonality, timbre, stage depth, width and other aspects of SQ judging before they can be allowed to judge any 1x much less a 2x show.

Those that have judged 2x shows, may be eligible to test for regional and 3x shows. Only the top judges can judge Finals and that is to the discretion of Ralph and Tim.

Insomnia plays a major part in this rambling. I hope I made at least a bit of sense.

Gary's spot on. I really feel that the judges training would be proper is a large room with some instrumentalists. It'd be cool to do for sure. Hard to do...but cool to do. How cool would it be to get a sax, violinist, piano, and percussionist together? I'm a percussionist (I've performed many different places for crowds up to 20-25K in venues, from football fields, clubs, the National Cathedral, the JF Kennedy Center in DC.) and could get my hands on a few cool items. It's just really hard to collaborate all of that...and a few of the things we'd need to hear IMO are expensive to buy if I can't borrow. But then again...it goes back to the room you are listening to these instruments in.
In a perfect world, we'd want to be judged by musicians/recording engineers/live performers. Most of those cats don't give a poop about what we do and imaging and staging. Some are so ingrained in their in-ear-monitors that they themselves may only know THEIR instrument. LOL...so...I dunno.

John, that was the part that I agreed with. It would be nice to have musicians perform the songs that we judge by. My sarcasm was placed squarely on the weight issue. The whole argument can go a different route as well. I am big, no doubts there, and my car may be tuned with me in it. Then when some medium sized judge sits in my car, it could image different due to the different mass in the car.

The minute you start discriminating people by their size, that can usher in a whole new set of complaints or issues.

To be truly fair, someone needs to come up with a computer program that measures all the variables that constitute a perfect sounding car. Until that happens, we have all sizes of judges and contestants. Let them compete/judge as they intend.

OMG, I agree with yall. But the size thing I think your going to have a problem with. No matter what the size of the individual I would think they would be consistant with the scores they hand out.
No? Yes?
robrice

I agree with you Rob on the size of a person should not matter as long as there scores are consistent. I know i have had some experiences with larger judges in my car, and one person comes to mind. We both have probably have been judged by this person in the past. he had to be at least 350 to 400 pounds. The first time he got in my car i have to admit i was a little scared, but when he was done I got the list of problems I already knew existed. That is all I can ask for.

As far as the rest of this I will agree with all of you judges need to be exposed to more live music, but in the end that is up to the judge to do. I know i have heard these same topics for years. Most of them will never happen. There is always going to be that very select few that truly care about what they do.

Size does matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If she is honest she'll tell ,you all that!!!!
lol ok Seriously,,,,I through in the size thing on purpose and for a reason. I went to school as a psycology major, hence the mind games I often play,,, I didnt finish school, but that's a whole different story.... Now everyone is saying that it shouldn't matter what your size is becuase as long as that person is fair and consistant than it doesnt matter...... Well if consistency is what you want, we need to all quit crying about qaulity of judges,,, a bad judge can be consistant... My 17 year old daughter can be consistant!!!! I have nothing against someone 300 pounds, Hell two months ago I weighed 276, diet has me at 246 today, But I can tell you this, if you are 5.5 foot tall and weight 125 pounds and have no hair, and you do know what a french viloa sounds like and you used your own recording room and you mastered the music and you stamped your own cd and you tuned your car to replicate what you absolutely know its supposed to sound like, and a big burly 6. foot tall 250 pound and have hair like a gorilla, I can assure you the car will sound different to that person..... So please do not look for things to take as offensive, I am stating facts... and if we ae going to address one issue we should face them all head on!

Now, its not as hard as you think to give a live performance to a set of judges.... I would bet a dollar you can contact almost any highschool band and get a live free performance out of them, this would be great. Go listen to the band in the gymnasium, record the concert, put it to dics. and use it as judging material. simple thought, give it some thought and wok out all the fine details, but it is do-able...

Now, discriminating against spl guys isnt fair either... I am pretty sure that everyone on this fourm has more hearing loss in the uppder octave's than they do in the lower!!!

Now guess what,, at the JBL labs in Northridge, we do know exactly what sounds great to 95 percnt of the people walking around on planet earth, alot of science, alot of tests, and alot of trained listeners has made this possible.... We have trained listeners,,, that can listen to a reference system, while you are making changes in the freq response and they can tell you what and where you are making changes, I have stepped through the test a couple times.. its amazing!

So what I am trying to say or ask is do we want consistency or do we wany accuracy.... consistency is easy to get,,,, accuracy is hard to get but with it comes consistency!

Valid Points Gary, most definately. And I know who you were referring to.

I really like the idea of the marching band, recording and using as a study guide or training tool.

I can probably get my brother's band to perform a live, acoustic set, off mikes, and I can use record them.

This is very do'able. Especially since my bassist has an upright bass too.

Gary you are wright about the way i used the word CONSISTENT. it should have been the word WRIGHT. my point about that post was that we should not assume that a person is not going to judge our car the wright way because of there size....

Now as far as getting bands to play for the judges before a show I am all for that, but i have herd ideas like this before and when it comes down to getting it done it never seems to happen....

As far as the fat girl that was to good.

well it is not to play before the show, but to record them when they are practicing or something. I think their type of music might be a bit heavy, but it could be used for SQ no doubt.

http://sleestakband.net/ Shameless plug. Bad recordings, but you can get the idea. There is so much that a mic on a mini cam can pick up...enjoy!

Yep my comments were nothing of the nature, that because a guy is big and fat or small and skinny that he isnt capable of judging your car..... We have to all be honest and admit that when we see a huge dude get in our cars, "were like dam i hope he is comfortable and can enjoy what he is about to experience" Im not being mean,,, just all out honest.... guess what? maybe I was that guy, or at least to someone I was that guy... hey no problem... I am just saying if we are going to put standards in place lets look at all variables...... Lets recruit hooter girls to be judges!!!! I am sure they can be consistant... they are generall perfect size.... they are generally nice looking.... they agenerally smell nice.... if were going to require so much out of how a judge can here, then lets require more!?!?!?!

This is a problem, unless you were one of the judges at this years finals,,, then you are probably stunned that someone doesnt think you have golden ears.......

Another thought,,, over the past years, I have made several trips to Japan, and judged their finals for IASCA... one concern that every Japan competitor had, was the size of the american judges...
it was always funny they thought the reason my name was Biggs is beacuse I was Big..... On a subway in Nahrita, Larry Tribel, and I were calld Hulk! Size does matter,,,

Your wrong the point of this is to get judges to know what a flute,sax,trombone,french horn,stand up bass and the difference between all five pieces of a trap set etc. etc. truly sound like. That is only going to happen if you listen to them LIVE!!!!!!!

I can't believe that no sexist jokes have come from this. Off topic a bit, but not really....

I will admit that I have had a few too many Big Mac's in my time, but considering I have only judged one show, and possibly the show coming up at Jimbo's and Chris P's, I don't really qualify as a judge per se. Gary and I both have made fun of our girth. Just so you know Gary, I will from here on out call you Hulk. It is over now.

I will work on my habits, try and lose some belly, and try and convince others of my general fluffiness that it might be good for them to lose the weight too.

This could be USAC's version of Weight Watchers. Ralph, you up for some weight loss big guy? How bout you Hulk-meister?

Join the USACI diet plan, become an SQ judge....

We actually have plenty of current musicians that work for alot of the rep firms evn in this territory,,, all of these guys would like to make an extra buck, pay them to judge at some of the larger shows. and team up more inexperienced judges with these guys,, that may truly be the eaisest way to get the ball rolling the right direction,,,,

I like that idea

so !!!!
fat guys can't have sq cars ?
why , well according to what i read "fat people are too big to judge"
well if you own your car and you tune your car.........................well i think you guys get the idea .
Biggs , who tunes your car .lol

i loved the ending
"You can attend all of the classes you want, and you will aquire alot of great information and knowledge, and that is definately a great path to follow, but it is a long way from the solution...."