First topic message reminder :

what qualities or sound experience should a sound q judge have?
robrice

wow !!!!!!!!
GOOD STUFF SO FAR WE HAVE
A JUDGE MUST HAVE
1. GOOD KNOWLEDGE OF MUSIC
2. always be working to increase there knowledge and judging abilities......"
3.GOOD ETHICS
4.GOOD KNOWLEDGE OF THE RULES
5.TAKE A FEW COURSES TO HELP HIM BETTER HIMSELF AS A JUDGE

I MIGHT BE MISSING SOMETHING OR MESS UP SOMETHING , BUT I LIKE IT AND AGREE SO FAR .
YOU GUY'S WELCOME TO ADD OR CORRECT ME ON THE LIST , BUT LEST SEE WE CAN COME UP WITH A LIST.

Wow...so I just sat here and read as many posts as I could without being interrupted by students and teachers. It doesnt seem like there is a definate answer to any of this. And that might be the best thing because once we find that perfect answer for all of this then thats when progress stops...thats when people (we) get complacent and stop looking and wanting for something better. Ive competed every year at World Finals since 2001 and never got a 1st,2nd, or 3rd. Maybe my car just sucks that much. But every year I get back in the mix and try to do better next year. I have also judged USACi shows for six years and judged Finals as well and I know enough to know that not only do the different judges play a factor...but also where your car is being judged at. The noise floor, engine noise, etc etc etc. For all we know a judge might not have got a good meal and hes a little pissed off and might cause him to judge differently. My point is that there are so many factors outside of the judge her/himself that affect scoring that it becomes to many factors to deal with.
If any competitor is coming in please just accept the fact that bias is just the nature of the game...unless we use some qualifiable machine to measure whatever.

OK, Here is an idea?!?!?! If the orgs feel so strongly about the qaulity of the judging pool, and if they have ben properly trained etc.... Then they should all be able to judge a car and the idea is to have the same scores... (we know this doesnt happen) so allow the competitors decide which judge judges their car... or at least have it kind of like an all star polling... on the website everyone votes for who the finals judges are.....

I like that idea Gary, be sure to bring it up at the Member's meeting

I think the point that is trying to be made is..... cover the judges expenses, and pay prize money to winning competitors.... lol...

There comes a point when you dont value things that are free. nearly as much as things you have to pay for.....

I would beleive this is true going both directions, customer who gets a free install isnt going to take care of it like a guy that had to save his money to be able to eventually be able to afford it...

emploer would continue to take advantage of an employee if he knew he didnt have to pay them....

I think its great that Nolan and others, even my self have donated time and money and resources to assist in putting on great events..

It just shouldnt have to be the normal routine......

If a org. puts on a show, and has free help... where is all the cashola going? just share the wealth a bit,, more people will buy in..

When wallmart wants to increase their sales,,, they put on a sale and discount their goods.... the customer wins, same as giving prize money, its all money back in the pocket of the customer/competitor..... Prlly wont happen, but I am a fan of prize money......................................................................................

My question is how many judges do we have to choose from...can we get a list of those judges posted up. Because some judges are great judges but may only be known in their area. Once we get a list of those judges can we then get a small list of their experiences and qualifications.
My next thing is that if instead of having one or two judges meeting, that somethimes is biased to one geographical loction, we have more judges meeting to get more judges in uniform. South, midwest, east coast, and west. Where ever the desire is strong to have judges.

Now we all have to look at the other side of the coin,,,,, How many competitors know more than the judges,,, not very many thats for sure... So everyone needs to be careful what we do or say,,,, As competitors we have the right or should have,, to have the best judges available.... who knows the best judge on this particular day in this particular are may be def in one ear..... Comnpetitors,, should first, make a wish list of qaulifications, and then each qaulification that is deemed needed, is worth a point and then the judges could be ranked... and they also earn points when the judge... this will make judges want to judge more than just at finals,,,

Lots of good points.
Just wanted to put my 2 cents in. The most frustrated that I was ever at a show, is when when I went to a show shortly after finals a few years ago.
I had beat the other competitor at finals a few months earlier by 30 + points. At this show, him and I were talking as most competitiors do. Both were familiar with eachothers cars. Neither one of us had changed a thing, and he was expecting to get beat. As he was being judged, II was showing him some details of my car that would help him in the future.
He ended up on top by over 60 pts at that show. I took it in stride as the judge must not have like my car, but nothing on the score sheet to that effect.
This is where we have to be more consistent, because there should be no way at any show that a car can have a 80+ point swing without an explaination.
Not sure of the answer, but there are a lot of good points on here. Can't wait to see what traspires.

I can sure agree with you on that point. I would be upset about that also. It just goes to show that unless there is some uniform way of judging these vehicles from judge to judge there will always be issued like this. The nature of the game is subjectivity!

There is one thing we have not talked about on this Blog, and that is install. We have talked a lot about sound but not install judging and it needs help I think.

When I started Judging it was as an install judge in IASCA. I was always told that a judge should never have a opinion about what types of materials are used in a car just that there used correctly.

Example: if a person builds kick panels and a door panel then covers them in black vinyl and his seats are black that would make sense, and should score well as long as the work is done right. But lets say he dose that same build with Pastel Poke-a-dots in the vinyl and he recovers the seats to make them match. That then should score better sense he has redone the seats to match.

Now even tho I do not like Pastel Poke-a-dots in any way I should not score that the same or worse as the black vinyl!!!!!!!

I also do not think a lot of judges take in to account "degree of difficulty".

The install sheet, should start out with maximum points,,,, then the judge take point off for everything that is demed wrong or incorrect.... example; head unit 5 points

upgraded 1
mounted securely 1
wired properly 1
cosmetically intergrated 1
easy to use and operate 1

if any of these are not present deduct a point.... and discus it with the competitor dont score it and run off and hide, and then pass out score sheets a month after the event....

loose bonus points... that is one of the most debatble items next to sound.... if you really wanted to be a hard asss, you could give no points on any car,,,, because maybe you dont think it is unique, because when you were judging the lunar finals on the moon you saw something way cooler...

Thank you very much Champion!. I cannot stand that when people score vehicles and then they run off for whatever reasons (how ever good they may be) and then you dont see them until the end of the show. And sometimes you cant speak to them then.
The install part is pretty much straight forwqrd interms of points...until you get to that dreaded bonus section. Just totally do away with that section...or at least we could come up with some better requirements for that. What may be unique and special to one judge may not be that for another judge. Again...leading to more bias.